Here at Charter Cities, we’ve received several requests for comment on recent press reports of an agreement with investors to develop the Honduran Special Development Regions (known as REDs, following the Spanish acronym). We learned of these agreements from the media and have no knowledge of their terms, so we’re unable to offer any comment about them.
Back in December 2011, the President of Honduras appointed George Akerlof, Nancy Birdsall, Boon-Hwee Ong, Harry Strachan, and me (Paul Romer) to the Transparency Commission established by the RED legislation to oversee the integrity of governance in the REDs.
However, the decree formalizing our appointment was not officially published, in deference to the Honduran Supreme Court, which has been considering a challenge to the constitutionality of the RED law. Thus the Transparency Commission was never legally constituted and it was never able to exercise any of its functions under the Constitutional Statute on Special Development Regions.
To clarify our position in light of this week’s developments, the five of us today sent the following joint letter to Honduran President Porfirio Lobo.
//////////////
7 September 2012
H.E. Porfirio Lobo Sosa,
President of the Republic of Honduras
Casa Presidencial
Tegucigalpa, M.D.C.
HONDURAS
Dear Mr. President,
Since the report of our appointment as members of the Transparency Commission for the Special Development Regions (REDs) appeared in December 2011, we understand that a constitutional challenge to the legal framework for the REDs has made it difficult for you to publish the decree giving legal validity to our appointment. Thus the conditions have not existed to permit the Transparency Commission to play the role envisioned for this ambitious and important project.
As you continue to work to attract foreign investment under the RED framework in this period of uncertainty, we feel it would be wise to release you from any sense of obligation to proceed with publication of the decree and thus with our formal appointment.
You should know that we, as individuals, continue to believe strongly in the vision behind the Honduran RED initiative, and we stand ready to be of service when the impediments to the full establishment of the institutional framework of the REDs have been resolved.
Sincerely yours,
Paul Romer
George Akerlof
Nancy Birdsall
Boon-Hwee Ong
Harry Strachan
cc: The Hon. Juan Orlando Hernández, President of the National Congress
About
Thank you very much for the update – it is greatly appreciated. I am visiting this website almost every day just in case something new is being posted in the blog. I believe Charter Cities have the highest potential to foster prosperity, particularly for the poorest individuals.
— Daniel Morin · Sep 7, 08:19 PM · #
Whiles it would seem you certainly have many battles ahead of you, I would like to still take this opportunity to celebrate what progress has been made and wish you the best of luck in formalizing you and your colleagues appointments. I look forward to the day a thousand nations may bloom and that the people of Honduras may enjoy a higher standard of living.
— Michael Freeman · Sep 8, 07:11 AM · #
While I realize Mr. Romer’s good intentions in his novel proposal, I am compelled to tell you that this is a very divisive issue with the honduran people at a critical time.
Mr. Romer’s idea has been severely altered and reshaped to make it palatable to the people. I am surprised Mr. Romer has not disowned the honduras version of his proposal. But even in its new form , it is totally UNacceptanle to the majority of the people. This is no time to waste political and social capital to impose a model widely rejected by the people. We need peace and tanquility to tackle deep structural malformations.
Mr. Easterly’s article titled The Politically Incorrect Way to End Poberty in the Third World, is compelling, revealing, and convincing.
May be it is much ahead of its time.
Best regards,
CAUrbizoSolis
— Carlos Urbizo Solis · Sep 8, 05:01 PM · #
I forgot to say that I am very much astonished , if not stunned, that a respected and distinguished personality ,such as Mr. George Akerlof , has consented to be part of project that most hondurans totally reject and consider offensive to our sovereignty and dignity.
I hope he reconsiders and resigns. The people of Honduras will honor him for it.
Best regards,
CAUrbizoSolis
— Carlos Urbizo Solis · Sep 8, 09:27 PM · #
I understand that the roles of a transparency commission are written into the RED constitutional statute. So if these ´private cities` go ahead right now then they would not be starting up under the protections of the RED constitution, and would basically be just new developments subject to existing Honduran rules.
— Graham Brown · Sep 9, 08:06 AM · #
Let me be very specific….a “state WITHIN a state” is UNacceptable and UNconstitutional. You can NOT make it legal by passing an amendment which is itself UNconstitutional!! The creation of a Transparency Commmission does NOT make it constitutional or acceptable any more than a TC can make any crime legal.
Sorry, good intentions are irrelevant in this case.
The root of our economic and social problems are political….LACK of democracy!! Our political system is ANTIdemocratic and UNconstitutional. We are praised for something that we do NOT have, democracy. The world only sees only that we have elections and NOT at the process by which people become candidates for elective office. The day the world examines and scrutinizes that process, they will conclude the obvious…THERE IS NO DEMOCRACY in Honduras. …..neither do we have a capitalist or neoliberal economic system. What we do have is neo-mercantilism.
Please refkect upon this comments and investigate my assertions.
— Carlos Urbizo Solis · Sep 9, 11:27 AM · #
Mr. Carlos Urbizo Solis, autonomous zone is not a state. Honduras, of course, is “neo-mercantilist”; and this is, of course, bad – so new rules and experimental regions are important.
— Artur Klepacz · Sep 9, 11:38 AM · #
PS. We talk about uninhabited part of the country. Nobody will be forced to anything, so where is a problem ? Even if this project fail, there will be few new roads, buildings and jobs.
— Artur Klepacz · Sep 9, 11:51 AM · #
Mr. Klepcsz…..the semantics do not change the substance. The president and his people can not go against the will of the people, and the majority of the people of Honduras do NOT accept that model. …back to the drwing board. I agree totally with Mr. Easterly’s views….neocolonilism at work.
What we need is….DEMOCRACY, that is the only way, for now, that better people will run the government, that there will be accountability, that nepotism and cronysm will be erradicated, that equal oppporutunyty will replace favoritism, that meritocracy will replace servilism and mediocrity…..and the list can go on and on.
Thanks for interest in the welfare of the honduras people, and please examine our political system, ans support democracy instead.
Best regards,
CAUrbizoSolis
P.S. I have some essays/writings , in Spanish, on our political and eonomic system . If you are intereted I can send them you.
— Carlos Urbizo Solis · Sep 9, 12:16 PM · #
Adendum: not that it makes a difference from the constitutional point of view, press reports indicate that the first RED zone selected is Naco, among 3 or 4 others, a town next to San Pedro Sula.
Mr. Romer’s concept has been so adulterated, I am surprised he is still supporting it.
Saludos cordiales,
Caus
— Carlos Urbizo Solis · Sep 9, 12:35 PM · #
I dare say “fifty percent of the population” in Honduras, have NO IDEA what the Charter City discussion is all about. Illiteracy and misinformation regarding the subject is so prevalent, those of us who can read and write, are confused.
Personally, the only ‘primitive experience’ I know is in La Ceiba, Honduras, where Standard Fruit Company (Dole)had its stronghold; and that was many many years ago. Many people had resentments toward it and others did see something positive out of it.
However, from what I have read and heard— unfortunately in a political year—why should Honduras have to foot the bill for infraestructure and natural disasters? and where is the real ‘gain’ for the poor people?
As Mr. Carlos Urbizo points out, and to say it lightly, elections in no way means democrazy and with the rampant corruption,nepotism,cronysm how does Mr. Romer’s concept stand?
Sincerely
JCF….. Sept. 9/2012
— Julia Cedeno-Fiallos · Sep 9, 02:07 PM · #
Personally, I do not believe in Charter Cities. We are in a different century, in a different society. I agree completely with Mr.C.Urbizo and Mrs. JCFiallos
— C.L.Rodriguez · Sep 9, 03:05 PM · #
By the way, I have written a Constitution for a Charter City. This Constitution is more democratic than anything existing in the world today. I am sure the people in Honduras would be happy about it. So far, I have written about 50,000 words in my Constitution, however I still have a few topics to finish and I am a bit shy to send you a link to a website which has no graphics and several incomplete paragraphs.
— Daniel Morin · Sep 9, 04:58 PM · #
Mr. Morin…. I can appreciate your interest and great effort!! But if that constitution is ideal for a charter city, why would it not be good for the whole country? Our current constitution has 379 articles, and over 25,0000 words!! No constitution can be that long and be effective and obeyed. God in His infinite wisdom gave us only 10 commandmentes, and we can not honor them.
En gland and Israel have NO constitution as such, and they have done very well indeed.
A constitution can not command prosperity and peace, but it can sure obstruct it…..as does ours!
Let us be a bit more humble ,” elevate them guns a little lower” as a US civil war general purportedly said, and start with good old DEMOCRACY which we have NEVER had in Honduras….and free market capitalism, which we have not had either!!
Saludos cordiales,
CAUrbizoSolis
— Carlos Urbizo Solis · Sep 9, 05:29 PM · #
I agree a 100% with Mr Urbizo. The whole process for the aproval of this absurd law has been covered with lies and contradictions. Mr, Morin says someting important about the ignorance of hondurans about the project and that point is what we are saying to the congress. They say they socialized the project all over the country. I read the media everyday, and I never heard nothing about it. The people living in the areas to be afected never were called to be informed, so president Lobo and the congress president are liars. We do not want a state inside the with their own gobernors, justice department and police. This will be the paradise for more imported and local corrupts…
— Rolando Martínez · Sep 9, 06:46 PM · #
Our Constitution is very clear, anyone who celebrates or ratifies treaties and gives concessions that hurts the territorial integrity and sovereignty and independence of our Country will be judged for treason to our Nation. We cannot allow this “experiment” to take place in our land. We cannot allow foreign corporations to make of Honduras a fiscal paradise for their own selfish purposes at the expense of our citizens, the wipe out of ancient cultures, and the fragmentation of our territory.
— Ninfa Perez · Sep 9, 07:14 PM · #
Most people have no idea what capitalism is about, so I do not use this word anymore. What we see around the world is fascism, that is, a partnership between government and corporations, however the large majority of people call it “capitalism”. My constitution is about free market capitalism (private property) and very low taxes. My constitution is like an essay, quite verbose because each clause is explained in details, leaving no room for the judiciary to interpret it wrongly. Almost all the clauses in the U.S. Constitutions are so vague that they have been interpreted completely in the opposite of the framers of the constitution designed them to limit the size of the government.
The challenge is how to run a government with as little taxes as possible, and keep almost every institution private. For instance, in my constitution, the government does not have a legislative branch, no police, and is forbidden to handle “justice” in any way, shape or form. I do not believe in Utopia. I also believe men are corrupt, even those with good intentions. The question is how to structure society in a way justice is served despite corruption. For instance, what would be the rules to ensure private prisons are operated without any taxes while being safe for both the population and the prisoners. Hint: you need to think outside of the box for a solution like this, because after decades of brainwashing, almost everyone believe, law, justice, police and prisons are an essential function of the government.
— Daniel Morin · Sep 9, 07:31 PM · #
Mr. Morin, I believe we are taling about two very different models ( Romer’s charter cities and your ideal conception) for now. I can appreciate what you are saying about the nature of man. Adam Smith, Fredrick Bastiat, and JMKeynes (animal spirits), among others throughout history, have referred to it.
In the meantime we have to deal with imminent danger, and the Honduras people are not ready to swallow Romer’s even modified concept of charter cities.
Agin, I insist , let us begin with democracy and market capitalism, as you call it.
Saludos,
CAUrbizoSolis
— Carlos Urbizo Solis · Sep 9, 08:13 PM · #
“let us begin with democracy and market capitalism, as you call it.”
I agree with you. The problem is HOW. There is no democracy and market capitalism anywhere in the world. Capitalism died about a century ago. Every day goes by, we are marching towards fascism, which is quite scary.
What I am proposing could be experimented on a small scale and people could see how a society functions with real democracy. In my constitution, I use the term “Instant Democracy” because people may pick their government as you and I can pick our religion. No need to wait 4 years for the next election to “vote” for which religion you want to have. For instance, every religion has its rules and fees (someone has to pay to maintain the building and pay the utility bills), so it is the case with each group (local governments) in my Constitution. My Constitution is about rules each local government must respect, such as the non-aggression principle and a system of contract of Dispute Resolution Organizations in case there are dispute between different groups.
— Daniel Morin · Sep 9, 09:43 PM · #
Mr Urbizo, sorry to quibble, but there is no such state as England. You are right if you meant that Great Britain has no constitution. Maybe a point to take from that is that it is not unprecedented to have sub-divisions of governance. Great Britain has a government, but there are sub-national governments within it (Northern Ireland, Wales and Scotland. But not England). And beyond that, the people of Great Britain are subject to supra-national governance, in that they are within the European Union. Nations, countries, states and governments are not necessarily synonymous.
A point I would make is that we are one humanity, and the present political sub-divisions we have (mainly sovereign states) are preserved by those who stand to gain from those status quos, and any sense of identity a people attach to their ´nationality`. The will of the people over the governance they are subject to can be expressed in many ways. One is the ability to vote, but the effectiveness of that is of course limited by the quality of the democracy they are in. Another is the ability to travel, and many millions of migrants have expressed their acceptance of a foreign state´s governance by moving to it. A new city project in this model would give people a chance to express their will regarding governance without having to leave their country. This is why this project is not colonialism. Colonialism simply over-rode the will of people. If no Hondurans move to the new cities then the cities will fail, and that failure will be an expression of the will of the people.
— Graham Brown · Sep 10, 12:25 AM · #
No Charter City in Honduras PLEASE! Gandhi one time referred to India as a poor nation and referred to England as a “far away island” that needed to leave India so its people could struggle to form their own nation; and struggle they did and look at India today. Honduras is one of the poorest nations on earth, it has never had democracy and it has always had corruption but we want to be left alone. We want to protect our freedom, our Constitution, our territory and fight for our democracy in our own terms in our own way. We have an enormous work ahead of us but we want to do it our way. Honduras is too fragile a country to risk another failed experiment of such magnitude!
Cynthia Alcantara
— Cynthia Alcantara · Sep 10, 09:42 AM · #
I’m glad to see you’ve posted this last update. I find it very hard to believe for Mr. Romer not to have done this before. If find the Charter Cities idea to be very clever y concept, but very unrealistic when it comes to believing this would work in Honduras. I think we can all agree that Hong Kong was once a Charter City, but not in the same fashion proposed my Mr. Romel. The main reason why people are very much against a charter city here is because the version of it being sold here is not the same as the one proposed. I think Mr. Urbizo sums it all up. Our Constitution is very clear about the sovereignty of our country.
I can clearly see all the agreements the president of congress is making are any other thing but Mr. Romer concept of a Charter City. I would like to see a bold statement about this from Mr. Romer, and the people at Charte Cities.
— Rubens Guifarro · Sep 10, 10:30 AM · #
Mr. Brown…It is indeed quibbling, if not notpicking. Enverone understands when anybody refers to England, a proxy for GB, or is it the UK? My comment was in the context of Mr. Morin’s writing of an ideal constitution. But that is not the issue at this time.
The issue is that Mr. Romer’s proposal is UNconstitutional, and Unacceptable to the honduran people even if the constitution is amended, which in this case it can NOT. It has to do with sovereignty and dignity as long as we are a country and NOT a colony or a protectorate. And it is UN-acceptable regardless of the economic benefits claimed.
In any event, why settle for a palliative when we can have a cure??? And the cure is…good old-fashioned DEMOCRACY AND CAPITALISM, the liberal and free market type, two institutions that we have EVER enjoyed. The economic history of the world is undubitable and irrefutable about the contributions od democracy and capitalism to the welfare and wealth creation of nations.
If Mr. Romer’s idea is so merit-worthy, why has it not been adopted in many other contries with similar and even worse conditions than Honduras? Why has it not been tried even in the First World with sections of their counries in perennial poverty? The only country thus far that dare try it is Madagascar. And there its president was acused of treason and eventualy forced out of office.
In Honduras democracy and capitalism has never existed….for 191 years this that we celebrate our “independence”. Like Juan Bautista Alverdi so wisely noted, “independence from Spain, but not independence of the individualfrom oppressive governments” in one form or another.
What prevails in Honduras after 191 years is a type of crony deocracy, crony capitalism at best and by a long shot. It is neo-mercantilism as defined by Unesco’s dictionary of social sciences and as so often explained by Steve Forbes.
The First World has been deluded or deceived into believing that we have democracy only because elections are held every four years. We are praised for a fake democracy,a hoax. If they were to examine the process by which people become candidates for elective office, they would summarily conclude that there is no such democracy. It would seem that the First World WANTS to believe that we are democractic, or that Latin America, except for Cuba, is also. In my opinion, if we were democratic and capitalist, which pretty much go hand in hand,we would be part of the First World…instead we are prominent members of the Third World!!!!!
What we need is the support, or even the imposition of democracy and free market capitalism by the First World…or they withdraw all soft loans and assitance except for humanistic and humanitarian aid by private and public entities!!!
This is where we should begin before making undecorous and unpalatable proposals.
I urge you to read Mr. Sebastian Malabay’s
article in The Atlantic titled “A politicaly incorrect guide to ending poverty”, which I incorrectly attributed to Mr. William Easterly’s quote about Mr. Romer’s proposal. Mr. Romer is unquestionably a brilliant economist, but in this case the issue has more to do with politics and statesmanship.
Saludos cordiales,
CAUrbizoSolis
— Carlos A. Urbizo Solis · Sep 10, 10:34 AM · #
Apology…..I am sorry about the typos (involuntary errors )in my last intervention. By way of explanation, the font size is very small, and I do not know how to enlarge it in a blog. And then, it is the haste to get the comments out.
Though through context, what I am saying will be understood, here is the correction of the most glaring, and that bother me:
1. Notpicking….s/b nItpicking
2. Enverone….s/b everyone
3. EVER….s/b NEVER
Pls excuse the rest.
Saludos,
CAUrbizoSolis
— Carlos Urbizo Solis · Sep 10, 12:52 PM · #
To all-
If a charter city is opposed by the people of Honduras, is there an alternative that can gain real traction to accelerate elevating the Honduran people to a higher standard of living?
Looking from the outside, the thought crosses my mind is that those who oppose a charter city on unused land, which would attract FDI-foreign direct investment, and give Hondurans a choice to participate or not, while saving a dangerous journey to migrate to the USA, Canada or other place where there has traditionally been ‘opportunity’, should have an alternative in place. It would seem that appealing to nationalistic sentiments while keeping a system in place that breeds poverty is self serving to those who oppose the alternative charter city.
Why not allow this charter city experiment, while working toward the real democracy which is suggested and see which avenue best elevates it people to a higher standard of living?
— Dan · Sep 10, 02:34 PM · #
Apology…please excuse the typos (involuntary erros) committed in the haste of getting my comments out. By way of explanation,the font size is very small, almost illegible, and I do not know how to enlarge it!! The most glaring and annoying errors:
1. nOtpicking…..s/b nItpicking
2. enverone….s/b everyone
3. EVER….s/b NEVER
Please excuse the rest as well.
Saludos,
CAUrbizoSolis
— Carlos A. Urbizo Solis · Sep 10, 02:34 PM · #
Carlos, good for you about the Constitution, we do not need another one in Honduras, nore Charter Cities.
— C.L.Rodriguez · Sep 10, 02:47 PM · #
Apology…..Please excuse the typos (involuntary errors) in the haste to get my comments out. In addition, the font size is very small, almost unreadable, and I do not know how to make it larger! Here are the most obvious and annoying:
1. nOtpicking ……..s/b nItpicking
2. enverone…..s/b everyone
3. EVER…s/b NEVER
Please excuse all others.
Saludos,
CAUrbizoSolis
— Carlos Urbizo Solis · Sep 10, 03:29 PM · #
Mr. Dan ….we can move towards democracy virtually overnight….if the powers that be allowed it, and/or we had the support, interest and concern of the international community. Free market capitalism would soon follow, and we would be right on track to a better quality and standard of living.
FDI is more than welcome by my book…..but not in the terms set by the charter cities conception or its revised version, RED. Those foreign investors could contribute a great deal to our political and economic freedoms by insisting that they would only invest if the whole country enjoyed those ideal new rules that are sought for the RED’s. What is good for the goose, is good for the gander!!!!!
The argument that the charter cities/RED’s would stem or slow the flow of migration to the US or Canada is fallacious and sophistical. On the other hand, we are told that this FDI is looking for highly skilled and educated workers….which we do not have. The majority of people that migrate are unskilled, and many can hardly read and write. But again, that is not the problem. The problem is the creation, and the unknown and unintended consequences, of a state within a state, or as euphëmistically called “äutonomous zones”. And even that could be managed. But how do you manage the constitutional restraint/prohibition against the sovereignty of the fatherland, which can NOT be amended as it is specifically and explicitly proscribed in the same constitution?
Charter cities can NOT be the only alternative at this time. In fact, it is absolutely NOT. If democracy and free market capitalism fails, which it won’t, maybe those who support the CC’s or RED’s can then try their sorrowful alternative.
Support DEMOCRACY AND LIBERAL CAPITALISM.
Saludos,
CAUrbizoSolis
— Carlos A. Urbizo Solis · Sep 10, 03:56 PM · #
NOTE: Some glitch has occurred that resulted in my apology being triplicated…maybe my errors were that bad.
Saludos,
CAUrbizoSolis
— Carlos A. Urbizo Solis · Sep 10, 04:00 PM · #
“In any event, why settle for a palliative when we can have a cure???”
If you can, why hasn´t it happened?
— Graham Brown · Sep 10, 04:49 PM · #
Mr. Brown……II said that , in my opinion, the cure is DEMOCRACY and CAPITALISM. Why hasn’t it happened? Because the neo-mercantilism is too engrained, too deep rooted. Remember what Machiavelli said about change? That is exactly our case. On the political front, the electoral laws impededemocracy, that is why I say that elections are a sham.
I believe that unless we are forced by the country donors, who must be bone tired by now of giving out aid withiut progress, democracy won’t come to Honduras for decades. Maybe we need an institution like the IMF to oversee the political process like they do the fiscal and monetary conduct of governments.
Saludos,
CAUrbizoSolis
— Carlos Urbizo Solis · Sep 10, 06:42 PM · #
Thank you, Dr. Romer, for clarifying your position. Could you please adduce the documentation appointing you as temporary Chair of the Transparency Commission, as well as that appointing the other four signatories of your joint letter? I don’t suppose I have to explain to someone dedicated to transparency how that would help the public, which of course cannot know what happened in your private dealings with the Honduran government, appreciate your concerns about recent developments.
— Tom W. Bell · Sep 10, 07:03 PM · #
Where can we find Dr. Romer’s clarification?
Thanks,
CAUrbizoSolis
— Carlos Urbizo Solis · Sep 10, 07:08 PM · #
Think I found it. Thought it was some document other than the one that appears at the biginning of this blog.
Saludos,
Caus
— Carlos Urbizo Solis · Sep 10, 08:28 PM · #
Those who oppose charter cities in Honduras either they don’t understand how they would work, or they are idealistic socialists or by all means nationalists. It makes me lough just by saying that. In simple terms we need investors who believe in progress not nationalistic nonsense. We need creative thinking not political speaches. We need financial fluidity not idealistic socialism. We need action Mr. Urbizo. What WE need is freedom to choose, we need free enterprise protected by clear rules. And that we can have it in a RENTED space called charter cities. It makes my blood boil to listen to people say that our sovereignty is in jeopardy. It’s in jeopardy if we don’t do anything about it. Talking and and writing fancy copies of early American nationalism learned in American history class probably in some bilingual school is not going to cut it. Let’s be realistic Mr Urbizo you are well spoken in English to be a Honduran, you’re very well educated. We get it, stop trying to impress us. While we are discussing this there are millions of Hondurans who are going to bed hungry, malnourished, have not work for months on end. We need a solution NOW. In this day and age we have to LEEP out of our comfort zones to be able to advance and create better lives for our Honduran brothers and ourselves. These charter cities may not work but is a better alternative to what we have now. And that’s a failed Nation.
— Juan Galt · Sep 10, 10:32 PM · #
I think Mr urbizo’s politics and idealism is useless when it comes to solving our countries problems, don’t get me wrong Carlos I know you mean well but you need to get a grip and study Ayn Rand. Honduras will never change with the way you think, with all due respect you need to think out of the box and leave the nineteenth century politics to rest. it will change your life my friend.
Paul Romer has the right to be upset because he was not consulted about the latest MKG signing of understanding with the government. That’s ok he’ll come around. I think that MKG group has very good ideas that would benefit the RED. Do your homework and research about these guys and FLOW. I believe they’ll make it work.Mr. Urbizo I don’t believe you are capable of speaking to 8,000,000 hondurans and know they’re against the RED, don’t be an alarmist. Where are your numbers coming from? I bet they are coming out of a magical hat. The Honduran constitution and the justice system is written in beautiful form and admirable wisdom. but it has never worked because our corrupt ways. And you now why we’re so corrupt? There is not enough money and opportunities for everyone, cant you see that? Don Carlos.
We as a country need to adapt to the new world order and to the changing times.
— Juan Galt · Sep 10, 10:34 PM · #
Don Carlos you know what! I don’t care who John Galt is, all I care is he’s moving to Honduras. Cheers. Saludos Fraternales.
— Juan Galt · Sep 10, 10:39 PM · #
““In any event, why settle for a palliative when we can have a cure???”
If you can, why hasn´t it happened?”
“Why hasn’t it happened? Because the neo-mercantilism is too engrained, too deep rooted.”
This appears be saying you can´t have a cure.
— Graham Brown · Sep 11, 02:02 AM · #
I am a “John Galt” and planing to move to Honduras before the end of this year. I hope to meet others like me over there.
— Daniel Morin · Sep 11, 04:46 AM · #
Mr. Morin, I live in Poland (it’s a country in central Europe :D ), but I too have great hope, that libertarian dream come true in Honduras. ^^ PS. I’m not a objectivist, but Rand was a great writer, certainly !
— Artur Klepacz · Sep 11, 05:25 AM · #
“Why hasn’t it happened? Because the neo-mercantilism is too engrained, too deep rooted.”
So there is no choice between “charter cities” and your ideal democracy, but between charter cities and… nothing…
— Artur Klepacz · Sep 11, 05:30 AM · #
1. I am dedicated to obtaiing that cure. And I have a lot of good, inteligent, sensitive people with me
2. The world belongs to mankind.I am all for freedom of movement of goods,,services, capital, and people.
3. People move from one place or country to another when they are unstisfied where they are or think they can be better off somewherelse
WELCOME TO HONDURAS with or without CCs!
— Carlos Urbizo Solis · Sep 11, 05:33 AM · #
Ayn Rand is brilliant…..but not infallible! I admire much of what she wrote about economics. I would have expected her to be an agnostic not an atheist, but…..
— Carlos Urbizo Solis · Sep 11, 05:38 AM · #
I am not an objectivist either, however I have admiration for Ayn Rand’s work, considering where she came from. My biggest learning was from Mises.org.
By the way, I know where Poland is located. I am and glad so see Poland moving towards more freedom and getting rid of bureaucracy. I still feel sad about this “accident” in Russia where so many good Polish people died.
I want to order the game “Queue”. Do you know about this game? Apparently it was designed by the Institute of National Remembrance to simulate what Communism was about.
— Daniel Morin · Sep 11, 06:13 AM · #
Mr. Morin, you are a great candidate to fight with me for democracy and liberal capitalism.
That is the solution! What is wrong with fighting for these two institutions? If we had them, we would not need to segregate part of the country for a CC.
P.S. If you read Spanish I could you some material on Honduras.
— Carlos Urbizo Solis · Sep 11, 06:39 AM · #
Mr. Solis,
I agree with you democracy and liberal capitalism is the way to go, however the question is HOW. Democracy is in itself an ingredient for freedom and prosperity, but requires strict rules on what people are allowed to vote. For instance, cannibalism is democratic as the decide (vote) whom to have for dinner. It is the rules that make a free society and a culture of respect for the property of others. If the rules are bad, then bad people will be attracted to power, or good people in power will eventually turn corrupt. A society where the “right people” must be elected in order to preserve freedom is Utopia… such society will never go anywhere but towards corruption.
After about a decade researching the topic, I started writing a Constitution as an intellectual exercise to see how a group of individual could form a limited government despite men being fallible and corrupt. The answer is having free market as much as possible, including at the government level. For instance, in my Constitution, a government officer is elected as an entrepreneur. He/she writes a contract about his fees for his mandate (say, as a Webmaster) and this is a binding contract until the end of his term. Citizen vote directly for which Webmaster they wish to elect. If the Webmaster miscalculated the cost of hosting a website, he may resign or go bankrupt. The Webmaster keeps the profits (if any) at the end of his term. Competition among candidates wishing to be elected as Webmaster will ensure the cost of maintaining the Government Website is fair and the services are adequate.
I do not read Spanish (yet), however feel free to send a link to some material. I am always eager to learn new things and open to new ideas.
My wife and I purchased Spanish courses. We are serous about this project.
— Daniel Morin · Sep 11, 07:06 AM · #
Interview with Mr.Michael Strong, CEO of MKG Group: http://soundcloud.com/freetalklive/ftl-interviews-michael-strong
— Artur Klepacz · Sep 11, 07:57 AM · #
To progress, primarily Honduras needs a new generation of politicians honest.
The idea of Mr. Romer is bright, but Hondurans are not like the Chinese (other idiosyncrasies) and therefore does not visualize a Hong Kong in Honduras.
In Honduras we need more education and less political fanaticism in order to progress. Now political activists complain models of cities, but have never complained of exploitation of its citizens in the maquilas. Hypocrites?
Honduran politicians are corrupt to the core and is a real shame.
Globally (though I am an economist) I think we should rewrite the economy because so far what we thought no longer works.
Liberal capitalism?, Markets infallible?, Invisible hand? … I do not think any of that is functioning as anyone with eyes can see.
— Miguel de Arriba · Sep 11, 09:00 AM · #
What is the difference between the maquilas and the model cities?
In the maquilas may still have the power while in the model cities lose power.
This is simply a question of POWER!
— Miguel de Arriba · Sep 11, 09:05 AM · #
There is another important question, what happens if a model city triumphs and make excellent living conditions to which they are in it?.
How would Honduran politicians in the eyes of its citizens to be demonstrated his incompetence since the time of independence?.
That is a danger that they and their fanatical followers are not willing to take!
* Excuse my bad English.
— Miguel de Arriba · Sep 11, 09:12 AM · #
Mr. Morin….democracy can be gained overnight. It is a simple question of one or two articles in the electoral law. It is NOT pie in the sky.
Let me try to explain to you why our political sytem is dysfunctional and conducive to all the ils that classify us as a poor third world country:
1. We have elections every four years
2. We do NOT select the candidates…those are selected by the presidential candidate…all 2,998 elective offices if he wishes to do it. (We do NOT even vote for the city-councilmen/aldermen/“regidores”, nor do we vote for the members of the local committes of the party. When one votes for the head, mayor, all the other offices go with him.)
Even hondurans have a hard time grasping the severity and consequences of this slate system. So for now I will not dwell or belabor the issue.
I have come very close to gainning our political rights, guaranteed by the constitution and made a mockery of by the electoral law….and the fight goes on as it has for the last 16 years when I became aware of this major attack on our rights! Up to then I had nor been involved in politics. But we shall overcome!!
I believe democracy is simple, uncomplicated, and inexpensive. What is complicated,expensive, abusive, impoverishing, humilliating, incapacitating, and corrupt is the present political system.
So much for now…..Got to go.
Saludos,
CAUrbizoSolis
— Carlos A. Urbizo Solis · Sep 11, 09:40 AM · #
“Mr. Morin….democracy can be gained overnight. It is a simple question of one or two articles in the electoral law. It is NOT pie in the sky.”
I disagree. Almost every country in the world claim to have democracy and its government is corrupt. What makes you think those in power will want to write those “one or two articles”. Second, general democracy is not better either. When everyone votes for anything, you get tyranny of the majority. What is important is having a set of rules to limit the power of the government. This is why Charter Cities are so appealing because only those willing to live those rules are affected by them. Changing the laws for an entire country is very risky and can lead to disastrous consequences. If the rules in a Charter City produce positive results, then it is much easier for the rest of the population to adopt them. Without a “role model”, the bulk of the population (and I mean the World population) is too ignorant to have any grasp of the situation. Practicing democracy to an ignorant populace is a dangerous game. The winner is always the one promising what is pleasant to hear, however impossible to accomplish.
— Daniel Morin · Sep 11, 10:02 AM · #
As a European citizen I do not care that the idea of Mr. Romer is implemented in Honduras or in any other country.
Delocalization implemented based on globalization has been disastrous.
To give an example … In Spain, companies will be produced to Marrueces, and then sold in Spain (pay low salary and high prices charged). That definitely is unsustainable!
In Honduras are manufactured shirts for $ 1 and then sold in New York for $ 80. Factories well … people, very bad.
When, for example, buy a product made in China, we are supporting job creation in China and where employment is needed in our country.
Unemployment and poverty have increased in geometric progression.
The poor can not buy, who will sell the business?
— Miguel de Arriba · Sep 11, 12:04 PM · #
Mr. Arriba… Ricardo’s law of comperative advantage…
http://bastiat.org/en/petition.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparative_advantage
— Artur Klepacz · Sep 11, 12:12 PM · #
Mr. Morin….let us agree to disagree.
As a honduran citizen very concerned and involved in current national affairs, I will continue to fight for democracy and free market capitalism.
I am on television, radio,and/or newspaper everyweek peddling………..democracy and free market capitalism with vivid examoles as to why we do not have those two institutions and , more importantly, the dire, unfortunate and mean consequences.
Saludos cordiales,CAUrbizoSolis
— Carlos Urbizo Solis · Sep 11, 12:54 PM · #
Mr. Klepacz
The brief of Bastiat, is a sophism (the Liberals, which constitute the status quo, used much the sophisms).
As for David Ricardo, we must not lose sight of what Jose Ortega y Gasset said: “I am me … and my circumstances” the circumstances of the period where he lived Ricardo were the same as those of 2012 . Then there was no technology and now … yes.
With the technology comparative advantage disappears … or at least minimized.
The only advantage that there is salary of slavery in some countries.
The economy must rewrite it because the old laws and theories are no longer being complied, certainly, “ceteris paribus” is useless.
— Miguel de Arriba · Sep 11, 12:56 PM · #
When economy develops, wages rise. In China, for example:
http://www.economist.com/node/21549956
— Artur Klepacz · Sep 11, 01:30 PM · #
When country is still poor, wages must be low, or else nobody will build or invest anything… It’s really very simple, and this is transitional period.
— Artur Klepacz · Sep 11, 01:39 PM · #
The idea of one person or even a group of people composing a constitution “for the Honduran people” is absurd on its face… if not an historical anachronism. When Latin Americans call for a Constitutional Assembly as the Frente is doing in Honduras, it is to hash out a legal framework democratically and collectively, with weeks of debate and revisions, etc… that someone hired as an advisor to an illegitimate Honduran president elected by a scarce minority under virtual martial law following the coup, pretends to plan a constitution that will protect Honduras from fascism, is a jumble of absurdities. The antidote to fascism is NOT corporate market capitalism, but popular socialism. Fascism is when corporate capitalism evolves into the dictatorship of the corporations, which is very near to what we have now. Just look at how corporate agribusiness is laying waste to agriculture in Honduras, turning fertile land that could feed and employ the people into the province of agrofuel kingpins whose African Palm trees cannot even supply decent firewood for the rural poor.
— Stephen Bartlett · Sep 11, 01:50 PM · #
“Yeah”, because everyone “knows”, that DDR was richer than Federal Republic of Germany, North Korea than South Korea, Cuba than Puerto Rico… (Puerto Rico is, by the way, very interesting)
— Artur Klepacz · Sep 11, 02:21 PM · #
Mr. Klepacz
1) When Chinese wages are not “profitable”, I imagine that “discover” Africa.
2) Chinese wages rise is good to increase their domestic market and not dependent on exports, which will be from Africa.
3) The transitional period is already too long, never seems to end.
4) I’m not talking about political systems. I’m talking about economic systems. In any case, I think China is communist and I notice that their leaders do not act very much in keeping with his doctrine. Maybe you have to study your case and get the result that you can combine economic freedom with firm rules for the market to not run wild.
What is done by the Chinese contradicts the favorite phrase of the liberals … “laissez fair, laissez paser”
— Miguel de Arriba · Sep 11, 02:45 PM · #
“The idea of one person or even a group of people composing a constitution “for the Honduran people” is absurd on its face… “
I am not sure if this post was for me, however I am not writing a constitution for the Honduran people. I am writing a constitution for a Charter City (or a little village). Those interested living by those rules are welcome to join, while others may stay where they are. This is real market democracy where people may vote with their feet. If there is a Charter City in Honduras, then the Honduran will have one more choice: stay home where they are, or try to join the charter city.
Of course, if the rules produce successful results, such as peace and prosperity, then those rules may be used elsewhere in the country or in another country.
— Daniel Morin · Sep 11, 07:24 PM · #
Mr. Morin, do you know what happened in Madagascar, the only orher country that dared try the idea of CC’s?
In the last four years no other country has attempted it except Honduras. If the concept is so good, why has it not been adopted by other countries?
Your position sounds very simple and atttractive…except that you have to find a counry that is willing and able to give up the land and sovereignty, even partially and even in uninhabited land. There are real practical, legal, and constitutional obstacles, Mr. Morin. You can not wish them away. We are not willing to be the guinea pigs, can not afford it politically and socially. Hong Kpng and Singapore, often cited as successful examples, are not aurhentic models though they may been inspirational.
Henry Ford I tried something akin to this in Brazil , a Shangri La of sorts. It did not work for long. Very respectable, illustrated, and knowledgeable people in Honduras are opposed to this project even if it appears to have merits. They oppose it like some others in other parts of the world oppose nuclear palnts, WalMart stores, Muslim mosques in NY, weapons factories, the oil pipeline from Canada to Texas, building of hotel complexes, and the list can go on and on. Bottom line…even poor, ignorant people in the third world have ,most infrequently, opportunities to oppose some action,
and succeed. WE OWN this country even though despots and undemocratic regimes have deprived us of that ownership for now.
The free zones have limited “freedoms”. They have to abide by our constitution, labor,civil and penal codes, in short, al of the laws of the land.
Let us make the WHOLE country a model country, a charter country. After all, it is not that big areawise, and the population is about the size of that Hong Kong’s!
Let us start with DEMOCRACY, which we have NEVER had.
Saludos cordiales,
CAUrbizoSolis
— Carlos Urbizo Solis · Sep 11, 09:05 PM · #
1. Rule of law may be even more important than democracy. There are some doubts about “democracy” in Singapore.
2. “Very respectable, illustrated, and knowledgeable people (…)” —-> argument from authority (argumentum ad verecundiam)
— Artur Klepacz · Sep 12, 03:37 AM · #
CHARTER CITIES ELUDES. Honduras: the wrong place at the wrong time.
I will step in, if Carlos and Mr. Morin and other active participants allow me, to just put the whole CC initiatives in a 2012-2020 perspective.
CC´s as envisioned by Professor Romer and other may never happen (again) because:
1. New (based on old) MegaCC´s are happening now in cities like New York and London.
2. Nanotechnology, 3-D printing and Transhumanism related bio-tech applications are the driving forces behind the creation of the new jobs.
3. China, Indonesia, the USA and Korea are not giving up on their 20th Century type work force and jobs to other areas. Outsourcing is having a political impact inwards.
CC Honduras as envisioned by Professor Romer, Pepe Lobo, e.a., may or will never happen because:
1. The Government of Honduras is a weak arrangement of post-Mel Zelaya trauma.
2. The Legislative Branch in Honduras has a political next elections oriented agenda interacting with local anti-globalization loud voices and remnants of ´´chavist´´ social organizations.
3. The Private Sector of Honduras realized CC´s bring real life, fair trade, market oriented business practices and would place a huge competitor at its door steps.
All in all, CC´s are not for Honduras. Dr. Romer, Harry Strachan, former President Maduro and other visionaries came together to the wrong place at the wrong time.
I will elaborate so I can have some coffee and see to my dogs.
— Cesar Gonzalez Sr. · Sep 12, 04:57 AM · #
Mr. klepcz….
1. Rule of law does NOT mean abedience to any law just because it is a law. If that were the case, laws under Stalin, Hitler, your own in Poland, would have been legitimate.
2. Yes,, the pelople I refer to have authority, moral and otherwise. If they do not, who does?
Did you see the movie about Ayn Rand? Guess what? She turned out to be human after all.
WE OWN Honduras even though powers that have usurped her and hold iher hostage ……… for now.
Saludos,
CAUrbizoSolis
— Carlos Urbizo Solis · Sep 12, 05:51 AM · #
CHARTER CITIES ELUDES. Honduras: the wrong place at the wrong time.
I will step in, if Carlos and Mr. Morin and other active participants allow me, to just put the whole CC initiatives in a 2012-2020 perspective.
CC´s as envisioned by Professor Romer and other may never happen (again) because:
1. New (based on old) MegaCC´s are happening now in cities like New York and London.
2. Nanotechnology, 3-D printing and Transhumanism related bio-tech applications are the driving forces behind the creation of the new jobs.
3. China, Indonesia, the USA and Korea are not giving up on their 20th Century type work force and jobs to other areas. Outsourcing is having a political impact inwards.
CC Honduras as envisioned by Professor Romer, Pepe Lobo, e.a., may or will never happen because:
1. The Government of Honduras is a weak arrangement of post-Mel Zelaya trauma.
2. The Legislative Branch in Honduras has a political next elections oriented agenda interacting with local anti-globalization loud voices and remnants of ´´chavist´´ social organizations.
3. The Private Sector of Honduras realized CC´s bring real life, fair trade, market oriented business practices and would place a huge competitor at its door steps.
All in all, CC´s are not for Honduras. Dr. Romer, Harry Strachan, former President Maduro and other visionaries came together to the wrong place at the wrong time.
What global forces are re shaping the vision and concepts offered by The Charter Cities Organization and Paul Romer and fellows?
Reacting to the 2008-2009 financial crisis and demographics, new start up cutting edge companies and projects, their financial angels and big established corporations from the high tech and energy sectors are expanding and or moving to large urban areas in the US and England. Yahoo is moving to New York, London is the new silicon valley and Houston is booming from either near $100bb prices or new LNG and shale oil extractions in North America.
NYC, LON and IAH provide logistics, ports, airports, enviable health, entertainment and education infrastructure and …. cheap, yes cheap workforce and talent. Just think about the many bright and clear minds of Indian, Pakistani and Central Americans living right there!, right now!
The health of an economy and its capacity to produce added values, growth and wealth depends now on technology and humans capable of converting TECH into APPs and be able to market and sell it. Natural resources are always available even if they are in the hands of transitional anomalies like Venezuela and Iran.
Therein resides the core richness of Counties like Germany, UK, Sweden, Denmark and the US. ( can be compared by the number of patents and trade marks claimed and registered p.a.)
This is what makes:
New
Permanent
Well paid …… Jobs!
BTW, I come from the legal profession and active in my practice.
And in the mean time someone tell me how is:
Michael Strong
The MKG Group and
an organization called ´´A Thousand Nations´´.
— Cesar Gonzalez Sr. · Sep 12, 05:51 AM · #
My friend Cesar……let us not lose track of the main issue…the model, the proposal, the concept Mr. Romer has put forth.
I like what you say about “the WRONG place at the WRONG time” but adding with the WRONG idea.
I urge you and and ALL to read Mr. Sebastian Malaby’s article in The Atlantic , “The politically INcorrect guide to ending poverty”. It is enlightening and revealing…and compelling!
What is so hard , or what is the fierce opposition about trying the model that has already worked the world over? DEMOCRACY AND FREE MARKET CAPITALISM, which YOU know we have NEVER had?
Saludos cordiales,
CAUrbizoSoLis
— Carlos Urbizo Solis · Sep 12, 06:13 AM · #
Carlos
What you read from me is an article in the works. I will point out and maybe discuss the 3 external constraints for CC´s around the world, the 3 constraints for a CC in Honduras and a 3 prong wealth and job creation strategy for countries like Honduras.
Three parts in 3 parts each.
but again…
who is MKG Group? I ask … who?
— Cesar Gonzalez Sr. · Sep 12, 07:17 AM · #
I grew up in South Africa and know from first hand experience that states within a state had brought the wrath of the world upon South Africa. They claimed it was the Apartheit issue (there were racist issues in the USA at the time)but in reality it was the poor serving the rich that touched the conscience of the world. The trickle down effect has not worked. The way forward is not for more capitalism and worse still, for more socialism. What is needed is for society to develop an elevated conscience. The Church has failed in this sphere but it can be done. Finland is a good example of what a population with an elevated conscience can achieve. The churches are empty but in my town we have no police station, no rubbish thrown in the road, etc..
Nikolai
— Nikolai Peronius · Sep 12, 09:13 AM · #
Dear Carlos:
Unfortunately the “free” market and the “free” competition no longer exists since appeared monopolies and oligopolies.
As for democracy? … not since being manipulated by political parties.
What Mr. Gonzalez says makes sense, the idea of Mr. Romer is good, but at the present stage of the world economy is out of place. Do not know if I will be very wrong, but I think there is a increasing sense of deglobalization.
I regret having concluded that globalization is the cause of all the economic evils that afflict us (unemployment, poverty, loss of social rights, …).
With globalization have only won multinationals.
The model cities, should be all the world to all advance towards prosperity.
It’s amazing that with all the advances achieved, rather than make us all rich … we are making all poor! By God!
— Miguel de Arriba · Sep 12, 09:58 AM · #
Carlos,
You mention very often “FREE MARKET CAPITALISM” however I have serious doubt you know what capitalism is about, and have more doubts you understand the term “free market”. By the way, have you ever read anything from the Austrian School of Economics? Free market is about voluntary exchanges; not a restricted market controlled by bureaucrats. Also, DEMOCRACY in itself is not a guarantee to prosperity nor will lead to FREE MARKET CAPITALISM. To achieve free market capitalism requires a change of culture – NOT democracy. Allowing economic ignorant people to vote for anything they want will always lead to tyranny of the majority. Almost the entire world has been educated with the mentality of “legal plunder”, so having a pure democracy means more legal plunder… which is the opposite of free market capitalism. What is necessary for a society to flourish are strict fundamental rules, such as the non-aggression principle and the respect of property. A democracy of ignorant individuals is like a mob of idiots… they will vote for anything that sounds good, however leading towards mass poverty.
This is why the concept of Charter Cities is so appealing because new rules may be created and people are free to move into the City and experience a different lifestyle under those rules. Why you oppose so much people deciding for themselves which rules they want to live under. If you agree with democracy where people are free to choose, then those individuals should have the right to choose which rules they want to live under.
— Daniel Morin · Sep 12, 01:39 PM · #
Cesar….I can not tell you at this momement who MKG is. But I did read in The Economist that this firm, as well as a couple of others, are funded basically by libertarians such as Patri Friedman, grandson of Milton Friedman, John Mackey (Wholefoods), Peter Thiel (PayPal) and Kevin Lyons (?). These people are well meaning, extremely idealistic but, in my opinion, irrealistic.
Saludos cordiales,
CAUrbizoSolis
— Carlos A. Urbizo Soliis · Sep 12, 02:17 PM · #
The following was sent out by the Honduran national congress yesterday:
Los diputados del Congreso Nacional iniciarán este miércoles la discusión sobre los lugares de Honduras en los que serán construidas las primeras tres Regiones Especiales de Desarrollo (RED), también conocidas como Ciudades Modelos.
“La modalidad que estamos impulsando en Honduras es muy distinta a la que vino a presentar Paul Rommer, porque aquella sí violaba la Constitución y la soberanía nacional; nosotros `tropicalizamos` esa ida y la adecuamos a nuestras leyes. La gente se quedó con lo que él vino a presentar y por eso cree que se entrega nuestro territorio, cuando en realidad no es así,” afirmó Ebal Díaz, asesor del Congreso Nacional en temas de Ciudades Modelo.
Díaz dijo que la idea de Rommer incluía que un país extranjero tuviera control sobre parte del territorio nacional, que las autoridades fueran extranjeras, que se aplicaran leyes extranjeras e incluso que los jueces fueran extranjeros.
“Nosotros, como hondureños bien nacidos, no podíamos aprobar algo así, cambiamos su idea, la adecuamos a nuestra constitución y eso generó la ruptura con él que lo obligó a alejarse del proyecto” recordó.
Luego, Díaz aclaró que las dudas de ciertos sectores de la sociedad hondureña, especialmente referentes a la pérdida de la soberanía o el tipo de moneda que circulará en estos territorios especiales, son infundadas y producto de una campaña de desinformación.
“Honduras no pierde soberanía, por el contrario, la misma se reafirma al consolidar la presencia del Estado hondureño en zonas donde tradicionalmente no la ha tenido. Honduras mantiene soberanía total e ininterrumpida sobre todo el territorio nacional, sea Ciudad Modelo o no”, explica Díaz.
“El terreno donde serán construidas pertenecen únicamente al Estado de Honduras y los inversionistas que tengan interés en participar deben comprar la tierra a precios de mercado y luego traspasarla para que se conviertan en terrenos nacionales. El Estado les dará a cambio un contrato de arrendamiento por un período de tiempo determinado”, agregó Díaz.
Díaz explicó que el único estado que ejercerá autoridad en las RED es el de Honduras y que los inversionistas extranjeros no pueden venderla ni alquilarla bajo ninguna figura, mientras que el presidente de la República nombrará un gobernador que cumplirá la función de un administrador.
“Este gobernador siempre será un hondureño –señala Díaz-, como hondureña será la moneda que circule en las Ciudades Modelos. Hay que aclarar que estas Regiones Especiales de Desarrollo no pueden emitir su propia moneda. El lempira será la moneda oficial”.
A la consulta de si todos los hondureños podrán ingresar a las Ciudades Modelos, Díaz manifestó que “En el territorio nacional hay libre movilidad, por lo tanto, la entrada y salida de las RED será libre para todos los hondureños. Los hondureños circularán en estos como lo hacen en Choluteca o cualquier parte de Honduras, porque las RED son territorio hondureño, no se necesitara pasaporte como se ha dicho para desinformar a la gente”.
Sobre la generación de empleo, Díaz calculó que en un período de 5 años, una Ciudad Modelo puede generar unos 200 mil nuevos empleos y recordó que la Constitución y el Estatuto de las RED establecen que el 90 contratadas de todas las personas contratadas deben ser hondureños.
“Esto significa que 9 de cada 10 empleados contratados en esa región deben ser obligatoriamente hondureños. En su primera etapa, en las obras de infraestructura básica, se calcula que se abrirán 5 mil empleos, pasando a 15 mil en el segundo año”, dijo el asesor.
Aseguró que países vecinos como Panamá crecen a un ritmo de 11 por ciento al año, mientras Honduras a 3 por ciento, a ese ritmo nunca se va a lograr alcanzar prosperidad para las familias hondureñas, se necesitan proyectos novedosos como este, que llama la atención de los inversionistas para atraer capitales extranjeros que generen empleos y dinamicen la economía.
——————
So you can see that the politicians have totally corrupted Romer’s original idea and will ensure that the corruptos remain in charge as always.
By the way, the interview with Michael Strong posted earlier is very interesting.
http://soundcloud.com/freetalklive/ftl-interviews-michael-strong
— La Gringa · Sep 12, 02:27 PM · #
Mr. Morin, I know exactly what you are referring to, and YES I have read and studied the Austrian School of Economics (no, I am no expert of it, only its pupil); and for that matter, Bastiat, Von Misses, Hayek, Friedman, Ayn Rand……..You go on your way to that philosophy, and in the meantime I will continue to fight in Honduras for the political rights embeded in our constitution and made a mockery of by the electoral laws. If we can not even enjoy those basic freedoms,do you think we can jump to your conception of democracy and capitalism? This is a rhetorical question, by the way. This is no time or place to get tangled up in a discussion of that high level.
For heavens sake, we have an imminent and pressing issue of crisis proportions to resolve that is dividing the people!!!!
Let us take this first step, and later we will progress to your political and economic conceptions, or the ones you support and avow.
Saludos,
CAUrbizoSolis
— Carlos A. Urbizo Soliis · Sep 12, 02:36 PM · #
Sr. Urbizo wrote: <<These people are well meaning, extremely idealistic but, in my opinion, irrealistic. >>
I couldn’t agree more and would add naive. I think that they really believe that the politicians want to create jobs and better conditions for the poor. I don’t believe that. I wish I could.
I also think that they are vastly underestimating just how bad the educational system is in Honduras and how that will affect the quality, abilities, and attitudes of the workers. Now there is a horrible thought! What if the teachers union get them to enforce the Honduran educational system? It could happen.
— La Gringa · Sep 12, 02:39 PM · #
This is a very interesting conversation and as a Honduras Citizen interested in changing the current situation, I do believe that if we continue doing the same things, we will not see different results.
Please listen to this radio interview, it is very informative:
http://soundcloud.com/freetalklive/ftl-interviews-michael-strong
In the mid 80’s the Free Trade Zones law and the ZIP law were a big question, and many asked why the Government was giving away the benefits? Many could say that this has not done much for our country, but what would happen if we didn’t have them today?
Carlos, I do not agree that the majority of our people do not agree with this new development project. 70% of our people is very poor and any new idea that could help them get out of that situation will be better than the current projects. (what projects?).
What can we do to have rapid growth?
How do you attract FDI with our current system?
Will the rich Hondurans distribute all of their money and properties to the poor to change the situation of the poor? NO, because they know better that by doing that the system will not change and then we will have more poor people in the country in stead.
Our current system will not allow us to get better, we need to test other options. If the Free Cities do not work, we will have to keep looking for other options. But, please give us (Honduran Citizens) a chance to try this option.
Juan Antonio (Tony) Medina
— Tony Medina · Sep 12, 08:14 PM · #
Mr. Morin,
As you mentioned … [Why you people so much Oppose deciding rules for Themselves Which They want to live under. If you agree with democracy where people are free to choose, then Those Individuals Should Have the right to choose which rules They want to live under.], I totally agree.
However, the problem in Honduras … not that (most of the Hondurans do not think so deep they are influenced by years of political clientelism). The problem has to do with the sovereignty and the exaltation of nationalist sentiment exacerbated within a political campaign
— Miguel de Arriba · Sep 12, 08:31 PM · #
Y de qué van a servir las RED bajo esos parámetros?, acaso eso no es lo mismo que seguir como hasta ahora? … jajajajaja es absolutamente ridículo!!!
— Miguel de Arriba · Sep 12, 08:34 PM · #
Juan Antonio Molina,
Acaso la mayoría de los hondureños saben realmente de que se trata la propuesta?, no será más real que no saben nada y son manipulados?.
He vivido en Honduras muchos años y conozco lo que pasa.
Perhaps most Hondurans really know that this is the proposal?, Not more real than they know nothing and are manipulated?.
I lived in Honduras for many years and I know what happens.
— Miguel de Arriba · Sep 12, 08:40 PM · #
Mr. Medina…….Please reflect on this:
We have not given DEMOCRACY AND CAPITALISM a chance, for God’s sake.
This is a big, big issue. I LIVE in Honduras. I study Honduras. I am on tv, radio, newspapers every week commenting on political, economic, and social issues that impact our daily lives. I am a frequent speaker at schools and colleges. I am NOT talking off the top of my head. I have a candidate for elective office. I was even president of the Partido Nacional.
Please read my positions in this blog carefully, then do your own research.
The absennce of civil or military dictatorships does NOT imply that we have democracy, just a diffrent, and in our case mean, abusive, corrupt political system.
If you send me your email address I will send you a couple of essays that will give a clear picture of what I am talking about.
And believe you me, the majority of hondurans are opposed to tjis project. That we have do “something” does not mean “anything”….particularly if it goes frontally against our constitution, soveriegnty and dignity. Read Decree 123-2011.
Saludos cordiales,
CAUrbizoSolis
— Carlos Urbizo Solis · Sep 12, 08:46 PM · #
What local/internal forces of Honduras are re shaping the vision and concepts
offered by The Charter Cities Organization and Paul Romer and fellows?
1. The Government of Honduras is a weak arrangement of post-Mel
Zelaya trauma.
After the 2009 meltdown of democratic institutions in Honduras ``normality`` was
restored after the November elections with Pepe Lobo being elected. Lobo took office
with a personal challenge to please anyone in the country and abroad.
He came up with a Nation`s Vision and 20 yr. plan to make the donor community
happy, President Lobo came up with ``Honduras Open for Business `` and the
``Ciudades Modelo`` road shows to entertain the local and international private sector;
Lobo crossed the lines to have a last minute recognition for a political party that did not
exist when he took office.
He started a ``war on drugs`` to accommodate to DEA, FBI and ATF fast and furious
objectives in the region and even turned his back on his constituency to cater for
demands from a ``Gang of Four`` who hold the Legislative at ransom.
As a byproduct of the entanglement described before there is a violent landowner vrs.
Land reform campesino organization going on the outskirts of one of the proposed sites
for a CC or Ciudad Modelo.
2. The Legislative Branch in Honduras has a political next elections
oriented agenda interacting with local anti-globalization loud voices
and remnants of ´´chavista´´ social organizations.
Based on a clumsy CC Honduras legal framework proposal, the Honduran Congress ( a
sanctuary for the Holiest of the Holy) passed a un constitutional piece of legislation for
the purpose of undermining the original CC concept while providing the ``gang of four``
with a modern and progressive façade. At the same time some proposed CC sites
overlap areas where dirt land strips welcome numerous flights originated in the
Colombia/Venezuela Amazonia region.
3. The Private Sector of Honduras realized CC´s bring real life, fair trade,
market oriented business practices and would place a huge competitor
at its door steps.
The CC model proposed by Romer and other economists and futurist organizations
require a combination of:
Land. Empty land. Preferably flat, not populated land. In the words of Charter
Cities Org.: `` a charter city is a new type of special reform zone. It extends the concept
of a special economic zone by increasing its size and expanding the scope of its
reforms. It must be large enough to accommodate a city with millions of workers and
residents. Its reforms must extend to all the rules needed to support exchange in a
modern market economy and structure interactions in a well-run city. ``
Land. Empty land. Preferably flat, not populated land. In the words of Charter
Cities Org.: `` a charter city is a new type of special reform zone. It extends the concept
of a special economic zone by increasing its size and expanding the scope of its
reforms. It must be large enough to accommodate a city with millions of workers and
residents. Its reforms must extend to all the rules needed to support exchange in a
modern market economy and structure interactions in a well-run city. ``
Rules. ``The concept allows for cross-national government partnerships that
facilitate the transfer of working systems of rules to greenfield locations. By adhering
strictly to two key principles — that the new rules apply only to people who choose to
live under them and that they apply equally to all residents — rules can be copied from
elsewhere and still achieve a high degree of local legitimacy.``4
4………………………..
California’s ‘Charter’ Cities are Under the Microscope
The Wall Street Journal, July 12, 2012
BY TAMARA AUDI, BOBBY WHITE AND MAX TAVES
The last three large California cities to seek bankruptcy protection or announce they plan to had seen
their housing values, tax revenue and employment crumble. They also have something else in
common: They all are so-called charter cities.
Now another California city, Compton, says it may have to file for bankruptcy by September. It, too, is a
charter city. Some say that’s no coincidence.
Of the state’s 482 cities, 121 have their own constitutions, or charters. That gives them more leeway in
governing their affairs, including the freedom to set their own rules about elections, salaries and
contracts.
…………………………
Existing Infrastructure. Investors in CC`s value the existence of roads, ports and
airports adjacent to the proposed Charter City Site. Investors and Operators will
demand control over preferred use of the infrastructure including power generation
plants. As well as privileged tariffs.
Other business models and practices. CC developers and operators believe in
efficiency, quality, redundancy and reliability. The operators oppose to local exclusive
dealerships or government distorted prices or cartels. Operators relay on an
international, cosmopolite cadre of managers and a docile, task oriented work force of
young men and women from Asia`s Pacific Rim.
At least one of the 4 elements above poses a threat to those who own land,
break rules, own and or operate existing infrastructure. For most of them efficiency is
achieved thru government subsidies, quality is sometimes a nuisance, redundancy is a
very strange word and reliability relates to body guards, guns and their capacity to
release nitric oxide.
The combination of all three external factors and the local trio makes CC`s virtually
impossible in the Republic of Honduras.
A note on the Constitution and other sets of laws. While the Romer model calls for free
market, law and order, justice and fair play within the walled Utopian chartered cities, it
takes a disruption of the legal framework or an authoritarian government to make it
happen.
— Cesar Gonzalez Sr. · Sep 13, 04:36 AM · #
Cesar…your last paragraph is a huge, huge drawback. But I insist why experiment with exotic ideas, when we have an effective short-cut:DEMOCRACY AND FREE MARKET CAPITALISM??????
The International Community that crushed and humilliated us in 2009, could also strengthen and resuscitate us by conditioning aid to the acievement of these two great institutions that they have enjoyed!!
Saludos,
CAUrbizoSolis
— Carlos Urbizo Solis · Sep 13, 06:59 AM · #
Carlos,
my bottom line is: Political Democracy as the US State Department evangelists proclaim does not help CC and other utopias happen. It is a real world.
Our country should be looking for mining companies, more call center operators, Brazilian, Chinese and Russian (via London ) buyers of real estate beach front products. If CC´s were for us Grupo Carso and Berkshire Hathaway would be tracking it.
— Cesar Gonzalez Roatan · Sep 13, 12:37 PM · #
Cesar.. The great thing about political and economic freedoms, which for the nth time we do NOT have, is that those are the conditions under which people grow and prosper WITHOUT the government having to push and promote anything distributing “benefits and incentives.” Just removing so many obstacles created by governments in dufficient incentive.
When you say “our country should….” , I do not know what the country is. I do know people simply act on their own when the conditions are right.
Saludos…..I believe we are approaching the end of this debate in this blog, and have to move on to action….today, tomorrow, everyday. Too bad it has to be under very disagreeable , inadequate, and adverse conditions.
CAUrbizoSolis
— Carlos Urbizo Solis · Sep 13, 01:12 PM · #
The constitution in Honduras is a great piece of art, unfortunately it is not working for what was created for, and it still needs ongoing reform. I my self like the constitution of Honduras but I do not think is being supported by the rest of the government, the supreme court and other institutions who need to work in unison.
But the problem in Honduras is not legislation or the justice system. The problem lies in its people and culture. That’s why it is of great necessity we have one working RED. This way with its success we can reprogram the rest of the country. Changing Hondurans way of thinking IS KEY.
I understand the fear in some Hondurans. Hondurans are always afraid they will be left behind in any deal. That’s why they get defensive when it comes to change or progress because they always think it is to good to be true. They think the person who’s giving them “something” (opportunity) is actually out the get them. Generally speaking they rather stay with what they know, than to try something new. We are scared shitless when it comes to winning or loosing, we don’t like to be put in that situation, EVER. That’s the reality of our mental attitude. We need to change this.
How? By starting with a clean slate. Can we do this right now? No, we cant. Unless there’s a revolution. And that’s not going to happen any time soon. Like I said before the constitution and the justice system is not the problem. The problem is who’s driving it. The problem is the rampant corrupt way of thinking of almost all government officials. Everyone wants a piece of the pie.
— Juan Galt · Sep 13, 05:51 PM · #
I don’t want to leave a great Honduras for my kids; I want to live in it. I’m practically young but I don’t want to wait 20 years to see real change in my country. I want to see it know, in the next five years, and these charter cities are giving me that opportunity to do so. To me RED means HOPE. WHY?
1. In the charter cities the usual corrupt politicians in Honduras are out or with very limited power. This gives the private sector an opportunity of a lifetime anywhere in the world. THE WHOLE WORLD. Companies like MKG will be able to recreate a “conscience capitalist system” within the city.
2. Bureaucracy will be seen as a sin. We will be able to open companies in one day like in Hong Kong. The city will cut the “corrupt middle men” out.
3. The judicial structure will actually protect your private company like in Delaware, US. What else do you need? Simple and clear rules of negotiations.
4. TAXES will be minimum creating the most competitive city in the American Continent. You will be able to protect your assets here.
5. We will import BRAINS, something we desperately need in this country. The US became great by importing the best most intelligent people from around the world. From Banana Republic to Libertarian Republic baby.
6. We will have CHARTER SCHOOLS, this is one of the things that MKG will bring. Charter schools are revolutionizing education in the US. Please do a research of these schools and how they are changing education in America. We need them. Not the corrupt education system we have right now.
7. Charter cities will bring investment from around the world; this will create an influx of liquid capital. More money more opportunity for every one.
8. There will be a construction boom, creating constant jobs. More office buildings, clean factories, hotels, restaurants, apartments, homes, all of this means more money for people.
9. MORE JOBS, MORE JOBS AND MORE JOBS.
10. Police will be educated and ELITE. They will be well-paid and their families taken care off.
11. These cities are sovereign of Honduras but not managed by the corrupt Honduran government. I love this. The Honduran people have been waiting for this for a couple of centuries.
12. The more charter cities we have the more competitive they’ll become with each other and it will all happen within Honduran soil.
Stop being fearful and start acting instead of thinking; these charter cities are not modeled after Compton or some bankrupt city in Los Angeles. Charter city is but a name nothing else. In Honduras is called RED not to be confused with a Californian Charter City.
The RED’S are getting attention from the right people, MKG, FLOW, South Corea, Bank of China, Paul is the base of this construction. The rest is up to us Hondurans to invite the right investments. Stop crying and saying it didn’t work there and there and make it work here. It’s time to realize who you are and what you’re capable of doing to pursue this dream of a better Honduras, a better you.
We as Hondurans need to focus on work, education and family. We need to have a tunneled vision towards success and progress only. Failing is not an option anymore at least not for me. I am Honduras. We are Honduras and this is the greatest opportunity we’ve had so far. Don’t let political dogma ruin this; don’t let divisive idealism stop you from growing. And above all remember what has been the cancer of Honduras. Corruption is not welcomed anymore. Right!!! Carlos. Not in the political sector and not in the private sector either.
Yes libertarians will come and that’s not bad at all, research what is a libertarian and you’ll be surprised. I studied objectivism ass well as many other philosophies, and nothing really defines me, you know why? Circumstances, circumstances can make you change your mind in less than a second. So I’ve learned not to encapsulate myself in little boxes or titles. Like Bruce Lee said: we need to be like water and adapt to new situations. Be free my friends, be free.
Don’t be envious of not creating the idea, on the contrary work with it and you’ll be able to someday create your own. MGPV270174
Cheers.
— Juan Galt · Sep 13, 06:39 PM · #
Morin I’m John Galt too. Cheers to all of you who are in favor of the REDS and welcome to the future called Honduras. and for those who are against it, we will welcome you with arms open to the new cities coming soon. And just for laughs.
WE WILL NEVER FORGET WE WILL NEVER SURRENDER WE ARE HONDURAS.
— Juan Galt · Sep 13, 06:51 PM · #
OK, all debates have a beginning and an end. For my part, I am satisfied that we have expressed our opinions on the subject. Extending the exchange will simply be repetitive, redundant.
Something will happen, and we will have the freedom to choose…that includes the freedom to hide behind John Galt, unfortunately.
Saludos cordiales, felicidades, y muchos exitos.
CAUS
— Carlos Urbizo Solis · Sep 13, 07:21 PM · #
“La gringa” is good to see you around here; I’m a big fan. I hope you study what these charter cities are about. Believe me they will not be perfect, nothing in life is. But we desperately need something to fight for. And the school system of the country will not be put in effect in the cities. They want to do it though but there is a consensus for not letting them in.
Remember these will be private schools funded by the companies that will be there. Do a research on FLOW and MKG one of the guys there has been working wih charter schools and interestingly one of them worked with the institute of noetic sciences, do a goggle search on noetic sciences. And those charter schools. Pretty good amazing.
Now about corruption: we all know we’ll see some, but the structure is being created to minimize it. I think that’s why Carlos Urbizo doesn’t like the cities.
By the way La gringa my wife is an American like you and she loves your blog, to bad your not writing like you used too but we perfectly understand the circumstances and we weren’t to happy with the facebook deal too. But is good to see you back and hope this is only the beginning of your writing like you used too. You know how we know you love this country like we do? You’re still here like us. It’s a love hate relationship. The New York syndrome. LOL.
— Juan Galt · Sep 13, 07:57 PM · #
Mr. Juan Galt, I really like your post #88. It really summarize my thought.
— Daniel Morin · Sep 13, 08:04 PM · #
Carlos who named youuuu the leader of this outfit? This only demonstrates your true nature. Word of advise, stop being conceited and arrogant.
— Juan Galt · Sep 13, 08:20 PM · #
I have the feedom, as you do, to not continue in this exchange.
You know who I am. I do not know who ou are.
And we are dealing with ideas not people.
Adios. Saludos.
Caus
— Carlos Urbizo Solis · Sep 13, 09:14 PM · #
When I said ideas and not people, I meant thst personal attacks were not appropriate. You are slandering me . I have never held public office nor have I ever done sny business with the government, sto the petsonal attack just because we disagree. Who are you? What is the matter woth you? Why are you aggressive? I do not have sny sgenda, only ideas and opinions . I do not need this forum to say what I want to say. I have full access to the mass media whenever I want. Look me up in Google, if you want to know what my views are.
Caus
— Carlos Urbizo Solis · Sep 14, 05:03 AM · #
Carlos I read all your articles last night and saw your interviews, I was mistaken when I thought you were another corrupt person trying to pursue a hidden agenda. I know you mean well, and your ideas about what needs to be done in Honduras are impressive to say the least. That’s why I retracted from the last post and contacted the blogger to delete it.
Now I’m passionate about this country and it might feel to you a little aggressive, please try to be less sensitive; after all we are talking about the livelihood of you, me and our brothers and sisters. Arguments like these will always get heated.
We actually agree on all subjects when it comes to fixing our existing government, but this idea of creating new cities with special perks is where we disagree. Things need to change in our government, no doubt about that and I am willing to work alongside you when the time comes. But these cities are a great way to start those changes.
Now about the arrogant comment, please reread your posts and you tell me. You said things like “OK, all debates have a beginning and an end” and now “I have full access to the mass media whenever I want.” It’s true, and we get it that you’re who you are. you’re a distinguish citizen, good for you. BUT that doesn’t make you right though. I wish I could tell you who I am; you’d be surprised to know. My life has always been in danger and that’s why I will always keep a low profile or no profile at all. For now I’m just Juan Galt.
The debate should not be on who we are and how many degrees we have on our walls. And should not be about how many intellectuals or good people we have on are side sir. When you started talking about your self, someone was bound to react or overreact, and in this case it was I. I apologize for digressing from the subject, but I have a little thing against bullies. I’m not saying you are one, but in some cases you sure sounded like one, and it raised a flag on my bully radar. I now you are a good person, well educated and with good intentions but I believe you are not well informed. Being an economist you should base your facts on actual numbers and statistics and not say that “most” Hondurans are against it, how did you come up with “most” did you base your facts on talks or based on numbers? Did you made sure they were well informed about the facts of the project before you asked them about it? I believe this debate should keep on going on this blog being that it is after all the chartercities.org blog, and to me it makes perfect sense to talk about the subject
Actually, I believe we all are not well informed. If we keep this discussion open I think it will shed some light to all our doubts. Maybe we can request this blog to open an open FORUM. With no foul language and insults of course. Or maybe you should open a blog about why you are against it and let us comment constructively.
These cities are our cities; I invite you to carefully read what these cities are about and how we as Hondurans or expats living in Honduras can do to help maintain clarity and honesty to the debate without becoming to political or theoretical.
— Juan Galt · Sep 14, 02:13 PM · #
Now one of the fears people have of these CC’s is that they are not created based on peoples needs but mainly on the private sectors need or even on corrupt political needs. That can’t be farther from the truth. Let me explain.
1. Paul Romer’s idea is based on the needs of the poor. Lets say he’s thinking of Alfredo, a Honduran who was willing to leave everything behind, his family and friends, Alfredo is willing to sacrifice his own life to desperately travel all the way to the United States. For what purpose? What’s in the US that we don’t have here? More beer? No. More soccer stadiums? Yes but no. Alfredo is sacrificing everything for WORK. He doesn’t care what it is, where it is, and how he’ll do it, he just wants to WORK. All he knows is that WORK will feed him and his family. WORK will give him a little bit of freedom to decide whether to eat one or maybe two eggs, two tortillas instead of one.
Now that we have that covered, we know that the main need of Paul Romer’s prospect is WORK. So how many jobs were created last year in Honduras? My answer is, not enough. Maybe Carlos Urbizo can help us with the right answer and statistics, I would bet my life on the fact that we’re in a deep deficit for job creation.
So the question I’m going to ask, is how many JOBS can we create in Honduras in the next two years? As it is. Can we change from neo-mercantilism to real democratic capitalism within a year? Do any of you have an idea that we can work with to be able to do this for our jobless brothers? If you do. I want to be part of it. Thing is Carlos, Honduras and most Hondurans are used to see things happen every one or two decades. You know this is true. You said that MKG were radical idealists and unrealistic. Ok, be truthful and tell me that you really believe that we have the capacity to change Honduras within two years? I think that’s unrealistic. You know it and everyone in this project knows it.
— Juan Galt · Sep 14, 04:16 PM · #
Mr. JG…Unfortunately I do not have enough time today to address all the points you raised. I do not even know where to start.
First, you are an honest gentleman. You have apologized for a deep blunder. Notice I barely defended myself in this blog.
I am semi-retired (69 years old) precisely to dedicate more of my time to researching politcal, economic and social issues of Honduras. When I said I have access to mass media, it was merely a statement of fact. I regret you took that as arrogance. I have access because they thing I have something to say….and they have to write a column or do a program!! I wish I did not have to appear in any media, believe you me. My life has been threatened in more than one occasion, and my family is against it. I have NEVER paid for an interview…NEVER. When I entered politics, I did so becaause we are told that only if you participate actively do you have a chance to influence policy. BS, big time BS. At that time, 1995, I told journalists that I woould never pay them because it would bribery or blackmail, or both. They accepted it reluctantly because they knew I was not a professional politician. It is one thing to be a politician, I explained, and it is quite another “to be IN politics”. Publicly I have said that I detest having had to be in politics Honduras-version, that it was one of the most disagreeble, and at time humuliating, experiences I have in my life.
As for my economic views, conservative and liberal (in the european, Von Misses Hayek, not the american sense), I have admited publicly that I have passion and conviction , even if I may be wrong, BUT I am TOLERANT AND RESPECTFUL of other people and their views. ( I consider one of the most prominent comumnists of Honduras, a friend. I have debated him in radio and in person, before a live audience, for hours.)
My opposition to charter cities, aside from what you have read in this blog, is that it is another “patch” to a “tube” ( the nation), perforated ,spent, decayed and spoiled, so full of patches already that when you put on another one, some other leak appears….all because we do NOT want to face the real issues: LACK OF POLITICAL FREEDOM (democracy) AND LACK OF ECONOMIC FREEDOM (free market capitalism). Simple as that.
With respect to lack of democracy, I have been fighting for that cause for 16 years. I haven’t sat idly by since I came to that conclusion. It was almost a revelation…voting is not a sufficient condition for democracay. People vote in Cuba, North Korea, and China, and noone dares say those are democracies!!! I coordinated a complaint with the Commissioner of Human Rights, a personal friend, witout success. He was busy in other issues. I filed a motion/grievance/“recurso” of UNconstitutionality with the Supreme Court, and they ruled against it. (Fortunately, constitutional issues are not closed cases—“cosa juzgada”, double jeopardy— and I shall return to the Supreme Court….soon.
and I SHALL return.
I maintain that if we had democrcay and capitalism, we would not need to experiment with exotic ideas. We would be a member of the firts world!! All the “patches” politicians come up with are invariably divisive. It is always in the interest of some and to the detriment of others…that is the main feature of marcantilism, or neo-mercantilism. Read Hernando de Soto’s superb book, El Otro Sendero, or Paul Craig Roberts’, The Capitalist Revolution in Latin America ( the title is almost a misnomer!).
So much for today. This issue and debate has drained me for almost two weeks now.
Tomorrow I will be in two tv programs: 1. At 6.30pm, telered21.com. A journalist/cartoonist/congressman is the anchor, and I share the program with an attorney member of LIBRE running for Congress, and 2. at 8pm, Channel 7, in 30/30 with Edgardo Mellgar ( I do not know what the site is in the Internet,sorry.) Maybe you can tune in…The first was already recorded and lasts for one and one-half hours, the second will be live and will last one hour.
Saludos cordiales,
CAUrbizoSolis
— Carlos A. Urbizo Solis · Sep 15, 12:53 PM · #
Juan Galt….I forgot to answer two important questions you raised:
1. Yes, there is a political plan. Repeal art. 116 of the electoral law (my cruzade which you can jooin), and the absolute power of the presidential candidate, the oligarchs (las argollas), will vanish,will end instantly. That will create great confidence, trust, expectations of a great future, and investments that will in turn create jobs, goods and services we need to improve our standard and quality of life. National investment is, or can be, much greater than foreign investment…just think of it, infrastructure, homes, buildings, cars, local businesses….it is a known fact that you can verify. According to some researches may 200 to 3oo times greater…although not as flashy and glamorous!
2. I know the employment statistics, they are pitiful! Of 6 million people between the ages of 15 and 65 ( 6.5 million from 10-65), only 3.4 million have jobs (work at something); of these, 50%, 1.7 million, are self employed, not because they are entrepreneurs but because there is nothing else; 1.2 million work at paid jobs, and 208K are public servants. Now note this carefully: the self-employed make an income of 4,802 lempiras, the paid workers 4,960, and the poor public servants 11,749!!! (Check them out at INE.org, Instituto Nacional de Estadistiica).
The legal minimum wage is about 6,200.!!!!!!
Salaudos,
Caus
— Carlos A. Urbizo Solis · Sep 15, 01:22 PM · #
Interesting fact: “(…) it is noteworthy that in 2003 the government of Dubai hired a retired British commercial law judge to administer British common law on 110 acres of soil in the Dubai International Financial Centre (DIFC). After conducting research on legal systems most suitable for financial centers, and noting that London, New York, Chicago, Hong Kong, Singapore, and Sydney all ran British common law, they decided to allow for an enclave with a different legal system on those 110 acres (the rest of UAE is Sharia law). The result is that a piece of small bit of barren desert became in eight years the sixteenth most important financial center on earth.”
— AK · Sep 15, 05:12 PM · #
Quotes from Patri Friedman:
“How many millions of words of academic papers about the benefits of free-markets does it take to add up to the two words “Hong Kong”?”
(…)
“Only by starting with a blank slate can you make a better structure without having to overcome entrenched interests, which tend to resist innovation because it reduces their power.”
“Government is just another industry, where countries offer services to citizens, but it has some unfortunate features. It is a geographically segmented monopoly, and since all land is taken, the industry has an enormous barrier to entry. To start a new government you have to beat an old one, which means winning a war, an election, or a revolution. And it has very high customer lock-in: there are barriers to emigration and immigration, and switching countries involves both high financial and emotional costs. These characteristics result in a horribly uncompetitive industry, so it is no surprise that existing firms tend to exploit customers instead of innovating to attract them.
This analysis neatly avoids moral debates and has clear practical implications: if the problem is an uncompetitive market, the solution is to make it more competitive. It also exposes the futility of strategies that don’t address this issue, like trying to win the war of ideas. While appealing and noble, this is ineffective. Without competitive pressure, our institutions generate flawed policies which benefit the political class, not those that reflect the consensus of academic economists. We need more competition in government, not more academic papers or mindshare.”
— AK · Sep 15, 05:18 PM · #
AK, common law is great, but these countries have a Spanish heritage, ergo codes. They are rigid, limiting , constraining , frustrating, and retrogade in some instances. Maybe when we achieve democracy, this ingrained practice will change. Even precedents are so restrictively defined that they are not as common as one would expect and want.
Caus
— Carlos Urbizo Solis · Sep 15, 07:46 PM · #
United Arab Emirates have sharia law, but they also have AUTONOMOUS FINANCIAL DISTRICT with common law… Charter cities are needed, because they will create more competitiveness in government “industry”…
“(…) Government is just another industry, where countries offer services to citizens, but it has some unfortunate features. It is a geographically segmented monopoly, and since all land is taken, the industry has an enormous barrier to entry. (…)”
— AK · Sep 16, 05:40 AM · #
Mr. Solis, IF you want to know WHY libertarians (and some classical liberals) want to build charter cities (or oceanic platforms – vide Seasteading Institute and blueseed.co ), you should probably read this:
http://www.cato-unbound.org/2009/04/06/patri-friedman/beyond-folk-activism/
— Artur Klepacz · Sep 16, 05:47 AM · #
Mr. aK….the philosophical issues, though interesting , valid, and important, are beyond the scope of the problem at hand in Honduras. I believe in people choosing where and how they want to live, but one must keep in mind that one has to interact and live with other people that also wish to choose where and how they want to live….and sometimes the two groups can collide.
We have pressing issues to tackle in Honduras, and we can not afford to waste political and social capital on issues that can be avoided. There are more than 200 counries in the worl where this charter cities experiment
can be undertaken…….and from the look of things, Honduras is not presently a candidate.
Saludos cordiales,a
Caus
— Carlos Urbizo Solis · Sep 16, 08:15 AM · #
Finally he speaks and I like what I hear.
http://www.laprensa.hn/Secciones-Principales/Honduras/Apertura/Grupo-MGK-planeaba-levantar-una-ciudad-modelo-en-Estonia#.UFb6khiIKz8
— Juan Galt · Sep 17, 03:40 AM · #
Dr. Romer,
Over a week ago, at comment 33, I asked, “Could you please adduce the documentation appointing you as temporary Chair of the Transparency Commission, as well as that appointing the other four signatories of your joint letter?”
Having received no reply, and seeing none here, I remind you that anyone dedicated to transparency should understand that the public cannot know what happened in your private dealings with the Honduran government. Hence the need for documentation.
In the absence of your reply, I did my own research, and found this post on a blog that appears to be run by the Honduran government (though it nowhere claims as much): http://www.red.hn/english/2011/12/8/president-lobo-appoints-initial-members-of-the-transparency.html.
That’s better than nothing, but hardly the sort of official documentation any fan of transparency would hope for. Call me disappointed. With or without you, I hope the Transparency Commission will do better in the future.
Tom W. Bell
— Tom W. Bell · Sep 18, 11:36 AM · #
It appears that the Transparency Commission was a comprosime. It is difficult to think what country in the world would want to be guarantor of the stability of the new CC. It was supposed to be some kind of world power that could intervene in case of breach by a future Honduras government.
There must be a better way. And there is . The International community should use all of its clout to see that democracy and free market capitalism come to that part of the world.
Saludos cordiales,
Carlos Urbizo Solis
— Carlos Urbizo Solis · Sep 18, 12:16 PM · #
Hello all, These are great comments!
Carlos, just like you, I believe that freed markets would offer the best path to justice. And I do not believe that the markets of the world are actually free.
But would it not be easier to create free markets in this one RED, than in an entire country?
This is a proof of concept. If the charter city has a freed market, Adam Smith’s invisible hand will start working again. Prices would approach value. (Compare to the status quo: Government rules and regulation limit participation in markets. Lack of competition allows businesses to price goods, labor and services much higher than their actual value. The businesses who the government favors get rich, and the poor who cannot afford the privilege cannot earn a fair wage.)
Of course, perhaps the charter city will fail. Perhaps it will be the same old shit. To me, it is worth the try.
[Quote from Carlos:]
> We have pressing issues to tackle in Honduras, and we can not afford to waste political and social capital on issues that can be avoided.
The only cost I see to the people of Honduras is the insult of having a state within a state. I believe it is unlikely that the charter city would use force against its neighbors, or steal from them, or try to rule them. The people who work in the charter city would voluntarily accept employment contracts.
I think that States are becoming obsolete. I envision a future where the whole world is a patchwork of charter cities. They would have different rule sets for their citizens to follow, and people would have many choices of what type of society they want to live in. Some can be socialist, some can be capitalist, but all could be voluntary.
—-
A few final references:
From the Michael Strong interview posted by Juan Galt:
> Tercero, aunque al final será el gobernador, que será hondureño, quien decidirá qué sistemas legales estarán disponibles en la RED, proponemos que los hondureños sean permitidos a decidir usar ley hondureña en sus contratos si la prefieren a los otros sistemas que proveeremos.
> De esta forma, nuestra visión es simplemente expandir otros mecanismos legales aplicados a los contratos y no restringir el derecho a las leyes de Honduras y no estamos de acuerdo con imponer un sistema legal extranjero sin que la persona pueda personalmente adherirse a él.
Google Translated:
> Third, although in the end will be the governor, to be Honduran, who will decide what legal systems are available on the network, we propose that Hondurans are allowed to choose to use Honduran law in their contracts if they prefer to provide other systems.
> Thus, our vision is to simply expand other legal mechanisms applied to contracts and not restrict the right to the laws of Honduras and agree not to impose a foreign legal system without the person personally to join him.
A discussion of ‘Rulescapes’, or sets of rules that differently-minded people can choose to follow: http://lotnv.net/rulescape-long.html
And finally, I participate in recording the Reality Exploit Roundtable podcast with some friends from IRC. In our most recent episode we discuss this charter city. The discussion begins at 26:45. You can download the episode here: http://agoristradio.com/?p=577
Saludos!
:-PLATO
— the.real.plato · Sep 18, 12:27 PM · #
Plato…you are true to “your” name…..philosophical. Again, we have real ugly issues to settle right now in Honduras before we move forward to. I have mainained that when God made the world , He did NOT draw any borders…except, biblically, for Israel. But reality is we have them, and some pretty hot and attractive ones, like the US’s and Mexico.
Please go back up and read all I have alrady said about this topic as it relates to Honduras.
But this emulation effect argument is flawed….China did not, has not, is not now, emulating neiher HK nor Simgapore.
Adam Smith , Bastiat, and a host of other writers, have asserted repeatedly we are all people, human beings, with virtues , vices, and defects…….no angels nor annoited ones, not any messiahs eiher.
I truly believe that thebwhole of Honduras coutd be CCountry. They already know what the good rules are…the ones that have worked in other parts of the world where people have a good life……..but more importantly, the ones they claim will be in effect in the CCs (ciudades MODELO, if you can believe that!). I am not concerned that they could be the “old shiit”, as you put it. My point, and cruzade for the past 16 years, is: FIRST….hoe about trying DEMOCRACY AND FREE MARKET CAPITALISM for he whole country. Hell, Romer talks about 1000 square miles or kms and up to 10 million people…….hell, we have more than 1000 square miles, and 8 million people!! We meet the size criteria.
Saludos,
Caus
— Carlos Urbizo Solis · Sep 18, 02:16 PM · #
The problem is “DEMOCRACY AND FREE MARKET CAPITALISM” is unlikely to happen for an entire country. There is no country on the planet having free market. This is why a Charter City is so appealing because it can happen now.
— Daniel Morin · Sep 18, 07:06 PM · #
Could be. But the CCs are NOT self-sufficient, and they will have to interact with the rest of the country and the world where , per your opinion, their rules do not exist. It takes two to tango!
Caus
— Carlos Urbizo Solis · Sep 18, 09:00 PM · #
It is true CCs are not self-sufficient, however the same could be said about any country. The goal has never been to have self-sufficient Charter Cities, but to offer different rules WITHIN the Charter Cities. This way, if a Honduran or a foreigner wishes to start a business, he has the option to start a business under different rules… bypassing all the red tape and corruption of the current bureaucracy.
What is causing poverty in Honduras (as in many countries, including First World countries) is all the heavy bureaucracy preventing the little entrepreneur to start his/her business. As a result, the individual has to sell his labor to a large corporation paying slave wages.
— Daniel Morin · Sep 19, 05:07 AM · #
From the sound of some of the comments, it seems like some people think that Honduras is moving ahead with Paul Romer’s ideas. What they’ve done is bastardize his ideas so that the same old people will still have the power and control. The congress is sending out news alerts like crazy with titles like this:
<<Honduran territory, Honduran governor (appointed by the President), Honduran laws, Honduran judges>>
Aren’t those the problems with Honduras to start with? If Honduran laws, judges, congress worked so well, Honduras wouldn’t need charter cities, would it? Michael Strong said in his video that poor legal systems were the root of the problem with 3rd world countries. (I’m paraphrasing; I don’t remember his exact words.) If that is true — and I believe it is — how could a CC be any different as long as it is subject to the same corrupt legal system? They are also vilifying Romer and playing the national pride card to make their version more palatable to the people.
It is the Honduran way to appoint commissions, like transparency commissions, whose members won’t have any power, no budget, and won’t hold any meetings. That’s typical. The only difference here is that generally people would be appointed who don’t have the will, time or interest to do anything. They had to get rid of Romer et al because they weren’t that kind of people.
@Tom Bell, that blog has been taken down since you posted it! But I vaguely remember it from long ago. I think it was something developed by HN gov’t employees involved in the project because they had some documents posted that no one else would have had access to at that time, like the proposed RED law. Are we being monitored here? Yikes!
@John Galt, thank you so much for your kind comments! As you can probably tell, I am pretty disillusioned with Honduras right now…..but I’m still here and still hoping for change. Cambia mañana?
Thank you all for the very interesting discussion.
— La Gringa · Sep 19, 11:12 PM · #
Today I will write in my native language and I’ll do so with great pride. The reason? This idea of charter cities may have come from an American mind but they may become reality in Honduras. Here we speak Spanish.
Durante los ultimos tres meses eh estado estudiando los pro y los contras de la creacion de estas regiones especiales de desarrollo. El veredicto final se desborda enormemente hacia los beneficios que pueden traer estas ciudades a nuestro pais. Ahora, si bien es cierto que cientos de politicos y empresarios corruptos van a beneficiarse de estas ciudades, no quita el hecho de que millones mas de hondureños tambien lo vamos a hacer.
Solo porque no queremos que estas ratas no coman del pastel, no vamos a dejar de hacerlo para quedarnos nosotros sin probarlo, me entienden? No podemos justicar no darle de comer a 10,000 familias solo porque 20 familias ricas quieren tambien beneficiarse de las ciudades. Eso es ser retrogrado e ignorante.
Me gustaria saber ¿que piensan de la soberania los cientos de miles de hondureños que se van ilegalmente a los Estados Unidos? Me gustaria saber ¿que piensan de la constitucion las madres que tienen mas hijos de los que pueden sostener? Me gustaria saber ¿que piensan de todo esto los que se estan muriendo de hambre?
Yo no estoy diciendo que la soberania y la constitucion de Honduras no son importantes. Lo que digo es que las ciudades modelos no las afectan. Si lo hicieran o por alguna razon entraran en conflicto con alguna de nuestras leyes, pues nos queda a nosotros utlizar nuestra inteligencia y sabiduria para encontrarle una solucion, y asi poder sacarle provecho a esta gran idea del siglo 21.
Con teorias vanidosas o filosofias anitcuadas no podemos darle de comer a nuestros hermanos hondureños, pero con trabajo si, y la creacion de trabajo es la idea mas fundamental de estas ciudades especiales. Hace unos años aqui en Honduras hubo gran conflicto por la creacion de las zonas industrials o Maquilas y ahora los mismos que gritaban en contra, estan ahora llorando porque se han ido las maquilas a otros paises “mas competitivos”. En el caso de Nicaragua, este pais no se a vuelto mas competitive señores, Honduras fue la que se a volvio menos competitiva, y si no me creen, preguntenle a los empresarios de Nicaragua.
Carlos Urbizo quiere cambiar este pais para bien. Sus iniciativas tienen mucha validez y creo que son necesarias para el progreso de Honduras, pero tambien lo son estas ciudades modelos, estas ciudades son el perfecto complemento para el desarrollo de Honduras Carlos. Yo se que en su Corazon va a encontrar muy pronto la respuesta a esa pregunta que se a estado hacienda internamente y va a cambiar de bando.
— Juan Galt · Sep 20, 02:23 AM · #
For those who understand what is the benefit of creating these cities, I welcome you to fight for them by joining. For those who do not understand, I challenge you to give us a better idea or solution. And no! No old theoretical neverlandish philosophies are accepted. We need real solutions. For the time being I’ll keep doing what I do best, conscious capitalistic money.
Carlos, I’m not surprised to know that “most” Hondurans are against the CC’s when “most” Hondurans are ignorant and uneducated. That’s our reality. What I don’t understand is why you are against it at this point. Maybe you don’t have enough information? I don’t know. I do know that you mean well though, but that’s not enough Carlos, you’re one of our leaders and I believe you should deeply, deeply analyze and study this idea. You might end up liking it like Morin, the others and I do.
Gringa don’t give up, I know you’re not completely informed about how these cities are supposed to work and of the people who are involved. Now, you’re right about corruption and all that, I’m with you on that. JOH will really try to squeeze some dough out of this, but just because he’ll do that, doesn’t mean you have to loose sight of the big picture. JOBS.
If the cities are created, I promise you I’ll invite you all to my new home there and we’ll have a nice barbacoa, we’ll have chorizos olanchanos, pinchos, baleadas. Ill be smoking a fine Honduran cigar with Morin and who knows maybe Carlos, we’ll have it with a nice and hot Honduran coffee. Afterwards we’ll have some sweet chocolate made with Honduran cacao, maybe some atoll de elote or rosquillas en miel. And to end the day gracefully we need to have a small bowl of sopa de caracol (conch soup) with a Salva Vida to relax on the hammocks and talk about how we can help the new charter schools. I can actually hear the Hondurans salivating.
Now, if it doesn’t happen. Ill move to a place where business is welcome and success is celebrated. Where ever that may be. I don’t have 25 years to spare, that’s why I want to see change happen now, and if Honduras doesn’t do it, another country will, and that’s where I’m headed. I’m sorry but Honduran sovereignty and the Honduran constitution doesn’t define me. I was born in Honduras but I deserve the world. My grandfather used to say that borders were built for sheep and cows.
So take care my friends and hope to meet you one sunny day soon, be it in cuyamel by the sea or on the new port of Trujillo.
Juan “El Catracho” Galt 270174
— Juan Galt · Sep 20, 03:51 AM · #
Mr. Galt….good things and projects are good by definition, but to be good they have to meet certain criteria. The legal aspects are somewhat beyond my scope.
As a pupil of Adam Smith and Jose Cecilio del Valle, among others, I truly, truly believe in division of labor. I have been fighting, yes fighting in the real sense of the word, for democracy and free market capitalism since I returned to Honduras in 1973, but more fiercely in the last 16 years. Please read what I have posted here more carefully.
You know about crony capitalism, ….. that is what we have. But adding insult to injury, we also have crony democracy. Make up an email address, and I will send some important material on these two issues.
Good, worthy national projects should not be mutuaaly exclusive. I will work in one atea, and someone else can work in another.
Saludos cordiales,
Caus
— Carlos Urbizo Solis · Sep 20, 05:31 AM · #
I am looking forward meeting you in person Mr. Galt. Do you have a way I may get in touch with you?
— Daniel Morin · Sep 20, 05:35 AM · #
Nice article, thanks for the information.
— rental mobil jakarta · Sep 20, 07:11 AM · #
Just when I thought I was out, You pull me back in. Adam Smith and Jose Cecilio del Valle, WOW. Great thinkers, great men, but I will repeat what I’ve said before Carlos, we need NEW ideas and economic theories for this era, in a way we can still fundamentally speaking use most of their thoughts, but we as a new society need to add more to the economic and social spectrum. And yes Carlos, I will read your posts more carefully. Crony capitalism is what we want to end with the CC’s “IF” they let us. By the way, now that we’re talking about wise men. Look at this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VTWzKykczJ0 and tell me what you think.
The U.S. Even with its faults and mistakes has been the most successful country that we know of in history, BUT NOW big government, regulation and taxes are destroying it, AND also extreme and greedy capitalism. Carlos I think that we both agree in many aspects of what we need to reform. But I believe with all my core that if we make these cities work, it will be the most incredible success story. I know it will not be easy, because of the great amount of corrupt officials and businessmen that are trying to see how they can benefit from them.
People who have owned Palm tree plantations, thermal plants, cellular companies who have more power than most banks. Bank owners who are not willing to invest in the future of Honduras and who only think of profiting from credit cards. They are so many that we don’t have enough space to name them. These people don’t understand that if more money is going around, the more money there is for our own businesses.
Please read Michael Strong’s books, they’re very interesting and it’s pure common sense. You’ll also be surprised to know the type of investors who are willing to come to the CC’s they are definitely bigger and more powerful than these guys here. And the groups, who back them and will finance some of their projects, are some of the most powerful in the world.
In Honduras there is a power struggle between big families and even within these families that has been going on for the past five years. Maybe you know this Mr. Urbizo. I think there’s a little chance to do something different, now that they are divided and fighting for power.
I can’t come back until we hear from the Supreme Court. Carlos, working for reform and working to make the cities work out is the same, it is working for a better Honduras, although, like Ayn Rand said: it is always better to work for oneself first. I’ll find a way to communicate with both of you Mr. Morin and Mr. Urbizo.
— Juan Galt · Sep 21, 12:27 AM · #
I like the YouTube video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VTWzKykczJ0 (Democracy vs Republic). Personally, I do not use the word “republic” because most people have no idea what a republic is. For instance, China is a republic, and so was the USSR. Others may think I am a Republican which I am not. Besides, today there is almost no difference between being a Republican or a Democrat in the U.S.
This is why I use the word “democracy with strict limitations” because common people understand what a democracy is (they can choose their leader, as opposed to having a monarchy or dictatorship), however the leader is strictly limited in his/her actions.
Likewise, I do not use the word “capitalism” for the same reasons. For many, capitalism means greed, such as Wall $treet. What we see today is NOT capitalism but fascism. I prefer to use the term “voluntary exchanges” and “respect of property” because I do not have to debate nor justify the definition of capitalism. Lenin was right: confuse the language and eventually you will confuse the entire population. Many debates today are around the definition of words. As long as people debate on the meaning of words, they cannot discuss and make plans to solve real problems.
> Please read Michael Strong’s books
Do you have a book in particular you recommend?
— Daniel Morin · Sep 21, 04:17 AM · #
Try The Capitalist Revolution in Latin America (though a misnomer, in my opinion, because he wants to believe that that revolution happened)by Paul Craig Roberts, and El Otro Sensero’(The Oher Path) by Hanando de Soto. I think it has been translated into various languages.
Saludos
— Carlos Urbizo Solis · Sep 21, 06:27 AM · #
JG…you could create a juangalt@xxxxxxxx.com account, and
I will send you the essays, including a speech I gave on Valle’S political and economic ideas to the Coledio de Economistas de Homduras. I think you will like it.
Saludos,
Caus
— Carlos Urbizo Solis · Sep 21, 06:14 PM · #
Hello Carlos Urbizo Solis,
I have just finished reading your entire list of comments about Charter Cities and in particular about the government of Honduras and what needs to be done to improve the economics of the country. Dr. Paul Romer is the son of a couple of people I have known almost all of my life. I have gone fishing with him in Colorado at his childhood home. His mother, Bea (Miller) Romer was the daughter of a friend of my father. I first knew her when she was about 12 years old. I was involved in business with Paul’s father Roy Romer and he was my first lawyer long before he was governor of Colorado.
I am 86 years young and live in Belize. My late brother was married to Alcinia Gamero from Honduras. Because of that and my interest in genealogy, I am familiar with the history of Honduras because her family were very much involved in the history of the country.
The charter city idea is a good, but really a crutch to support what should be implemented on a national basis. Perhaps in a country like Belize which only has a population of 300,000 it would be easier than in Honduras. But if you are correct that a small change in the election system would correct the situation, by all means go for it.
There is a lot of money invested in Honduras and a lot more could be if the changes you suggest could be accomplished. Corruption costs a lot and does not promote much work for local people. At the present time many businesses in other parts of Central America are financed from sources in Honduras.
I can’t help but think that Paul Romer is trying to plant a seed in Honduras to see if it will grow into something worthwhile.
— Philip C. Freytag · Sep 23, 11:46 AM · #
Mr. Freytag,I am pleased to hear from you. I have no reservations or doubts about Mr. Romer’s motives and intentions. While I can appreciatte that one has to think out of the box, one must be realistic that there are limits particularly when territorial boundaries and sovereign authority are concerned. As you can gather from my comments and objections, my point is that the CC solution is partial and skirts the main drawbacks to a better life for hondurans. We haven’t in 191 years this September given DEMOCRACY and FREE MARKET CAPITALISM a chance to produce the wonders it has in other countries that today are considered first world countries. Like the title of Ayn Rand’s book, “Capitalism: the unknown ideal.”
Guess what? I attended high school in Belize at St. John’s College. I almost became a Jesuit in the process, but I couldn’t overcome a major obstacle……women!
I believe, as you do, that Belize could be a country that could adopt the laws/rules that could raise the standard of living of belizians….without having to call herself CC. It could be another Hong Kong or Singapore , its one time sister colonies.
What do you think of their current laws? Are they not inspired by the british principles as HK and Singapore were? They are certainly small enough in area and population that they could easily become paradisiac in Central America. What do tou think is the hurdle to overcome?
Indeed, the Gameros, from Danli, are an old, well known and respected family. I am sure they could have narrated a lot honduran history to you.
Thanks for writing. I am committed to fighting for democrcay and capitalism in Honduras. I thinkk that those two institutions is what the first world shares and differentiates them from us in the third world. They are effective, efficient, and peaceful.
Saludos cordiales, don Felipe,
Caus
— Carlos Urbizo Solis · Sep 23, 03:43 PM · #
The most important thing I hope they remember in the Honduran experiments, is that democracy is only valid for political decisions, and must be limited by the principle of inalienable rights. The Law is the collective organization of the individual right to lawful defense. No one’s life, liberty, or property, can ever be lawfully taken by a democratic vote, for such is nothing more than mob rule. Rather, only a Jury can decide to do such things, and even then, only if they find the defendant guilty of wrongdoing—regardless of what the legislation says. For otherwise, the King (or “the people”) will pass laws granting themselves license to your lands, your savings, your daughters, your labor, and everything else that is yours. The last line of defense is a jury that understands their power to reject any legislation and to decide their conscience. Otherwise “the majority” might pass all sorts of tyrannical legislation, and then Rule of Law (thus GDP) will be lost. Once your neighbors believe they can “vote” themselves your property, then you may have “democracy” but it will be corrupt and filled with poverty. Only through Rule of Law can a nation be rich! For it is the strong protection of property rights that drives investment.
The second most important thing, I suppose, must be the importance of fair representation and proper apportionment. “Everybody has one vote” is not enough. That vote cannot be diluted so much that the elected representative has any incentive other than to do the will of the people he speaks for. For if any corruption can possibly enter the picture, this means his district is too large and the people within it have become disenfranchised. Ignorance of this principle makes it possible for authorities to take the power from the people in a hidden way, so they continue to believe they “all have one vote.”
This is all according to the Law of Moses…
— Justice in the courts:
“Hate evil, and love good, and establish justice in the courts.”
Amos 5:15
“Justice, and only justice, you shall follow, that you may live and
inherit the land that the Lord your God is giving you.”
Deuteronomy 16:20
“Do not pervert justice;
do not show partiality to the poor
or favoritism to the strong,
but judge your neighbor fairly.”
Leviticus 19:15
— Fair representation:
“Select capable men from all the people, men who fear God, trustworthy men who hate dishonest gain, and appoint them as officials over thousands, hundreds, fifties and tens.”
Exodus 18:21
— Limits on the majority:
“You shall not go after the majority to do evil.
Neither shall you testify in a matter of strife
to incline after the majority to pervert justice.”
Exodus 23:2
Additionally, Christ said: “Do violence to no man.”
Paul said: “Each of you should give what you have decided in your heart to give, not reluctantly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver.”
Christ said: “Is it not lawful to do as I wish with my own things?”
The charter cities will become rich if they follow these laws. Otherwise: “Except the LORD build the house, they labor in vain that build it: except the LORD keep the city, the watchman wakes in vain.”
— Fellow Traveler · Sep 25, 10:09 AM · #
Well written Fellow Traveler. I agree with you democracy in itself is not sufficient for freedom. Democracy without strict limitations leads to demagogues as it is the case today all over the world.
— Daniel Morin · Sep 26, 03:17 AM · #
Mr. Solis
Last monday night I watched ANTE La NACION on
honduras Chanel 21 where you were a guest of Mr. Holman Cerrano. Tat is a great program. You urged others to join the debate and complained that you have been abandoned, not getting support from others.You are right and it is a shame. So better late rhan never I am here to join the fray and jump in with both feet.
I think that part of the reason is that you few people have been exhausting all the arguments, that it seems imposible to add new ones. But what is inportant bears repeating, and there is strength in numbers.
My appologies for my tardiness.
Here are some of myobservations;
-Mr. Romer’s original concept has been adulterated.
Mr Romer has withdrawn his support for these alterations.
His original concept necessitates that the host country be a third world country, meaning it has to be lacking in all the positive attributes of a first world country which would not lend itself to such an experiment.
Specifically what attributes am I refering to? True democracy,adecuate fiscal and judicial policies,and all the constitutional guarantees, etc.
Any offers of capital investments by wealthy foreigners would exacerbate an already corrupt
goverment.I do believe that capital investors shuld profit as I believe in capitalism.
There are only a handful of altruistic billionaires in the world that would invest a considerable amount of capital in such a risky experiment and not profit even a minimal return. Otherwise they would just be
giving their money away.
Why not try true democracy and free market capitalism first. Then use the whole country as a model.
In the wings,Luis Brousse
— Luis Brousse · Sep 27, 02:41 PM · #
Try true democracy and free market capitalism first? You are definitely not from Honduras, and if you are, you don’t know our history, and if you do, then, you definitely don’t understand how a small group of people have controlled and will control the politics Of this country during this century and probably the next. Here power is PASSED from family to family and from generations to other generations, ENDLESSLY. And these new guys have a stronghold. they deal with hundreds of millions of dollars not lempiras anymore.
O.K. but lets be dreamy for a second and say we do change these dirty politics in our government only to FACE the worst. The IMF, WORLD BANK and last but not least IADB. These banks will have us for dinner if we try to do things right for us. The CC’s are a patch like Mr. Urbizo said, but a necessary one if we want to see change NOW and not in 300 years. CC’s will benefit many billionaires or billion dollar companies, great. I’m not envious of them having their way, as long as we get JOBS people, we need Jobs.
You know why Mr. Urbizo has been abandoned? because he is from San Pedro Sula and doesn’t really know how things work in Tegucigalpa. If he did he’d probably be president. but no, unfortunately for this country people think he is swimming against the current, I think many of his ideas are great and need to be done, I admire Mr. Urbizo for going out there and saying what he thinks.
Now he is against the CC’s for good reasons but the rest who are against it, are for the wrong reasons. Just listen, pay attention and will understand. The ignorance is SAD and the same time laughable like a perfect paradox.
Honduras is 90% ignorant, uneducated, and have no f#¢@ng clue of what we’re talking about here. and don’t care. So we need to make decisions for their own good and give them JOBS and a better education. It is sad, yes. I feel bad about it, but it’s our reality and we need face it and work with it.
There are different types of revolutions that can change this country, a cultural revolution! not happening, an educational revolution! NOPE, an economic revolution! HOW? We are not China. An armed revolution. It’s being tried here, not successful at all look at Colombia. A political revolution? wait! really! No, we are not Brazil.
Lets go back to the economic revolution. It might work, I’m not sure it will, but it has potential. How? Charter Cities, maybe not Romer’s CC’s, but a new breed. look at what are the differences. Be a good Honduran if you are and do your research. Romer is a genius but I guess he didn’t know OUR CONSTITUTION. Eventually he will see that his idea cannot happen here as a whole. It has to be reformed, and the constitution too has to be reformed to be able to work flawlessly with the CC’s, Ive been saying that it’s not going to be easy but if we work with it it might end up working for all of us.
— Juan Galt · Sep 27, 06:10 PM · #
Mr. Galt.
thank you for your prompt response.I have been following your comments and can see you are well informed.
You are right, I don’t know as much as I should about the history of Honduras. I was borne in Central America and have been living in the USA most of my life; where I live quite happy and secure.I am not rich at
all,but I bet most people in Honduras would be happy to change places with me.I read and watch the news, so I am aware of the problems in Central America, especially in San Salvador Honduras and Guatemala. Mainly I am aware of crime, gangs,extorsions,murders etc. That is my background.
What is wrong with “Try true democracy and free market capitalism”? How much do I have to know and understand? You are obiously more informed than I, but frankly,Mr.Galt,you confuse me. Are you pro or contra.You make a lot of sence in one sentence,and make an incongruous conclusion.
You wrote several paragraphs just to put down my solution, and I am not sure where you
stand.You accolade Mr Solis and repudiate his reasoning.
Try “True democracy first” Forget about free market capitalism for now. This means do away with what Mr. Solis characterizes as Cronyism. This would solve all that is wrong. Pie in the sky, you say? First you would have competent honest goverment. Why you say? Because if the governants don’ pan out, they will be voted out. Now we have efficiency,and that means progress.Corruption
is arrested and abolished,….
Perhaps I gave the wrong impression that I think all you promoters of Mr. Romers CC are corrupt.That was mnot my intention Instead I
think honest, well meaning,capitalistic people will aid and abet more corruption.
As I said, Mr. Galt,I am confused with your reasoning. Without academics can you tell us why are you opposed to a simple solution, that simple people like me and most Hondurans can understand?
Sincerely, Louis Brousse
— Luis Brousse · Sep 27, 09:31 PM · #
Sorry I was not available for comment back Mr. Solis in answer to your questions. I am an engineering consultant to some businesses in the Corozal Free Zone at the border with Mexico and was busy doing soil tests for a new building there.
What do I think of your current laws in Honduras?
The system for voting is completely broken. It is the same way but not as bad here in Belize. When a government changes so do all of (or most of) the subordinate government officials and employees. In addition voters are actually paid by the parties to vote for their candidates. It is worse than democracy but is called democracy.
Are the laws not inspired by the former British principles in Hong Kong? Yes, to some extent, but also from the laws of the United States. Paul Romer’s father Roy, whom I know personally, was and may still be on the Democratic National Committee. The democrats would like to obliterate completely any similarity of the government being a Republic and institute a “pure” democracy. But again, does an individual have any say whatever as to who runs for office? No, unless he is active within the party organization at a very high level. The average person does not even know how the parties are organized.
What is the hurdle to overcome? Democracy, in the way most people think of it, and the way most politicians use it to their advantage.
A possible solution:
1. No voting of citizens except on a very local level of population. Each small community would then appoint a delegate to the next level of government perhaps called the district. Then again the districts would do the same for the State. No elections except on a local level.
2. Some qualifications should be required for the electorate. Read and write at least.
3. No contributions to campaigns for elections.
These are reasons that I do not use the word “democracy” very often. I was County Chairman of the Libertarian party in Fremont County, Colorado and went as a delegate to the State and National conventions. I do not even see a necessity for political parties but you have to fit in if you want to take part. Now I live fairly free in a beautiful area without voting except in the village area where I live.
My sister in law’s grandfather was one of the leaders of group that caused the revolution of 1919 in Honduras, and her uncle, in whose house she grew up, became the Secretary of Defense of Honduras from 1919 until 1924. I am referring to Isaac Gamero. He was also appointed Counsel to Belize in 1909. They were strong leaders in attempting change so you see this has been going on for a long time. My sister in law does not want to return to Honduras.
I apologize for being so long winded.
— Philip C. Freytag · Sep 28, 10:51 AM · #
Mr. Brousse, welcome to this outlet, I apologize for not doing it before.
I am both in favor of the CC’s and electoral reform, which is one of Mr. Urbizo’s proposals.
In the CC’s case there need to be a lot of changes made in order for it to work in unison with our Constitution. And our Constitution also needs many amendments done to equally work with the CC’s. Now, Mr. Romer’s idea will not be able to happen as a “whole”, and changes are inevitable do to the fact that our Constitution clearly is in contradiction with some points in Romer’s idea. This is but one of the things that Mr. Urbizo talked about. This doesn’t mean that the CC’s are bad and evil, it means we need to put our minds to work so that the project becomes real and eventually gives Hondurans an opportunity to work, study and prosper.
I am equally passionate about constitutional reform, electoral reform, and institutional reform in my country. I believe in conscious capitalism and libertarian ideals. I believe in what Mr. Urbizo is trying to do to change Honduras. I also dislike cronyism as he does, hence my libertarian ideals. but I strongly disagree with him when it comes to the CC’s Why? Well, Mr. Urbizo’s arguments although “right” in some cases are not factual in others. Just because I admire him doesn’t mean I have to agree with everything he says Mr. Louis. And I’m not a person who sugar coats reality. That’s why I stated that if he knew how things worked in Tegucigalpa he’ll probably be president by now.
Tegucigalpa’s culture unfortunately is corruption and corruption, everything is done that way, it is ingrained in peoples psyche, and I’m not talking about only politicians, I’m talking about businessmen, small entrepreneurs, bankers, Mr. Urbizo knows about them bankers, he used to work in a bank. Everyone here is corrupt in some way or another, from bribery to nepotism. every one of us, either had benefit from it or has been a victim of it. and that Mr. Louis will not change in the next 50 years. It is unfortunately part of our culture. While in San Pedro Sula people are more industrious, and more ethical when it comes to work and business. That’s why I said what I said.
So when you say that true democracy and free market capitalism is a simple idea, it might be for Sweden or Switzerland. But not for Honduras. Yes I think that some day it will work, but I’m afraid is not happening right now when we need it the most. Honduras will need to change many things and will have to reform many laws to be a better country, but Hondurans need solutions and the CC’s may not be “THE SOLUTION” but I’m sure as hell it is one of them. Mr. Brousse I’m person who researches and investigates as much as I can about the things I believe are opportunities, that’s how a make my living. This is one of the ones I know will work. even though it needs work. This is a winner.
I accolade Mr. Urbizo and then I repudiate him? Common man, did you look for those words on the dictionary? Look, sometimes I’m blunt and direct, it is in my nature to call it as it is. I actually like Mr. Urbizo.
I was trying to put down “your” solution? I thought it was Mr. Urbizo’s solution. And no, I’m not against it, all I’m saying, as you can see above, is that that specific solution although very good is something that will take too long. I’m not saying don’t do it, I’m saying do it along with the CC’s. Isn’t that simple?
— Juan Galt · Sep 28, 07:59 PM · #
Mr. Urbizo and Mr. Morin I apologize for the delay, here it is johngalt.hn@gmail.com and to any of you who are interested in sending information, you’re welcome.
Cheers.
— Juan Galt · Sep 28, 08:35 PM · #
Likewise, I agree democracy and market capitalism are the way to go, however pure democracy and market capitalism may be opposite.
It is the rules that creates society. A system of corrupt rules (law) creates a society of corruption. Letting people creating rules via an unrestricted democratic process is very dangerous because there is nothing protecting the minority against the whim of the majority.
Changing the culture of an entire country is almost impossible. On the other hand, creating rules regarding a small unoccupied piece of land (a Charter City) can create a culture of honesty. Those who do not fit the culture are excluded and eventually the Charter City has its own culture.
— Daniel Morin · Sep 28, 09:09 PM · #
Mr. Freytag….From what you write, Belize should be an ideal place to experiment with Romer“s idea !! But if one looks closely, it is a case where simply democracy and free market capitalism have not been given a chance!A country of 8,800 miles and 340,000 people can be a country-state with the rules spoused by Romer and would not engage in and issue that is so divisive. Like you say Belize and Honduras are a lot similar …in doing the wrong things for their people. Or are we going to be told now that the area selected a la Romer has to be densely populated, as opposed to being dispersed and therefore out of the control of the new rules. Again, to me this is a matter of just skirting or evading the real issue…..political and economic FREEDOM!!!!
Saludos cordiales a todos.
Caus
— Carlos A. Urbizo Soliis · Sep 29, 10:42 AM · #
Mr. Galt….You are absolutely correct. Tegucigalpa holds a hegemony, a total grip, a stranglehold over what happens or does NOT happen in the rest of Honduras from times immemorial. Granted this has happened with the acquiescence, collusion, self-serving assistance of the powerful private sector (another oligarchy), a system that is best defined as NEO-mercantilism to use a popular prefix. I have exposed and derided this transgression, this abuse, this trampling of our rights , liberties, prerogatives and faculties for the last 16 years when I came to this realization….concurrent with my fight against arts. 108 and 116 of the Electoral Law!!! At one point I went as far as saying that in the next 49 years I could envision de Republic of North Honduras and the Republic of South Honduras. Then someone, in not so very kind and friendly terms, admonished me to watch what I said, that it could be construed as advocating cessation and sedition!!!!
You are right also in that if I lived, or had moved to Tegucigalpa I would have been less unseccessful. ( I ran for “designado/vice president” in the Nationalist Party in 1997, as I indicated in this blog before.) I was the spokesman for the party then and wrote the government plan singlehandedly . Subsequently I became chairman of the Nationalist Party, whhich is now in office. In the Northwestern coast of HOnduras there haven’t been any permament or prominent “leaders” with national clout….only fleeting ones. Right now there is a candidate ( one out of 7-8 possible contenders in the general election), from San Pedro Sula, living in SPS, for the presidential nomination of the Liberal Party. And prior to him there was one other, a very fine man, some 40 years ago that became a candidate for the presidency.
Anyboby that is anybody in national politics has had to go LIVE in Tegucigalpa.
A quick list: Roberto Suazo Cordova, La Paz(1982, president); Jose Azocona, LA Ceiba (1987, president); Mel Zelaya and Lobo, Olancho (last two presidents); Micheleti, Progreso (president of the Congress and interim president of the executive); Oswaldo Ramos,Olanchito (candidate); Rodolfo Irias, La Ceiba (president of the Congress); Juan Orlando Hernandez, current president of the Congress; and the list goes on and on. What do they have in common….they moved to live permamently in Tegucigalpa, and use their home (province/state) as a power base to continue in elective office.
May be I was naive, ignorant, or whatever, to think great, dramatic, structural change (that is so obvious and desperately needed) could be promoted and achieved from outside Tegucigalpa. In my constant appearances, and appeals, in the mass media, I tell my audiences two things: 1. the hegemony of Tegucigalpa, even before it became the capital; 2. it is a farse, a hoax, a fallacy, an illusion to think that that you have to “get in” (join, participate in) a political movement of a party a la Honduras to effect changes. Once you are in, you have to conform, you have to be part of the oligarchy, and maybe eventually you will have or share power….but by then, the “system” has absorved you, and that is the end of promoting change!!
Despite all of the above, I continue with my “cruzades” from San Pedro Sula. I have to pretty much stick with I what I know and can do….division of labor, once again.
Technology, and the proliferation of tv channels, are making it possible to reach ever increasing audiences. Even so, the programs that originate in Tegucigalpa have the most impact. There is not one program originating outside Tegucigalpa that has even half the audience of the ones from Tgu. The best anchors and celebrities (political, social, and economic) are in Tegucigalpa….and if there is any of some importance from outside of Teguccigalpa, he/she must travel there for the program. There is more to say about this, but I shall leave it for later, if at all. In the meantime, I believe everyone can get the picture I just painted.
Saludos cordiales,
Caus
— Carlos A. Urbizo Soliis · Sep 29, 01:17 PM · #
I will be doing some more work in the Corozal Freezone next week. I hope to meet with the CEO of the Zone whom I think is an old friend from about 10 years ago. I hope to discuss the CC concept with him. The existing Freezone is really only a reduced tax and duty concept with owners and operators not required to have work permits. Employees are hired from outside of the zone. But it has attracted some hundreds of store and business operators from all over the world. There is another freezone operator called Fruita Bomba that grows papaya mainly for WalMart. They lease land for their operation but have tax incentives. Dickies had a factory at Belize City that employed about 300 people but when their tax incentives ran out they left. I think for Egypt. A third industry is in the process of
getting started. American Sugar, Inc (I think the name is) is buying the Belize Sugar Industry. Again for tax incentives. But 6,000 people get their living from growing sugar cane.
Kick this around though. Belize is broke just like Honduras. But it would take very little to just buy the country. The people might be delighted.
— Philip C. Freytag · Sep 29, 01:39 PM · #
Have some group buy it all up…..then live libertarianly!
What you say is happening in Belize is patchwork and temporary.
I still would like to hear from you more elaborate answers to my questions and points I raised.
Saludos,
Caus
— Carlos Urbizo Solis · Sep 29, 02:05 PM · #
We are posting your informative article at the LIO Friends site, which networks Lib activists in many countries.
The LIO curator re-affirms that a libertarian-based eco-charter city would have full common law and jury protections; and LIO fans encourage full human rights discussion and legal process to assure public input and assent. Charter cities, however constructed, should not be the excuse for rights abuses including ecological mayhem.
To find out more about people worldwide using voluntary approaches, please see the non-partisan Libertarian International Organization @ www.LibertarianInternational.org
— Libertarian International organization · Oct 5, 08:34 AM · #
Hello LIO,
Do you have an email address I may contact you. I would like to learn more about your organization. Thanks.
— Daniel Morin · Oct 6, 03:17 PM · #
I admire the vision and the courage of president lobo to try this new idea, I am a honduran citizen and I am very much in favor of it.
Why?, lets look where we are, could we be worse? hardly. If this project does a half of the expectations it is still a win for the honduran people.
I don’t think people realize the sacrifice many hondurans do to go out of the country to find new opportunities. If honduras has the chance to accomplish this on its own , why not do it?. Why not bet?.
The sovereignty and pride is just an excuse behind ignorance. Most of the honduran people would support this if they really knew what’s at stake, while some elite are now campaigning against it and in favor of the status quo, in reality they are just holding the country back, and hostage to poverty.
How to come out of this hole of poverty without trying new things?. Afraid of change?, afraid we might actually succeed?.
We have to dare to try new things to come ahead.
Of course there are these that are now demagoguing the issue, yesterday I read one of these critics saying that they oppose it because there will be prostitution in the city. Seriously?. That is not just ignorance, it is also stupidity.
I would like Honduras to have shot, and this is a great project to bet on and we might not get a great chance like this in a long time, so we should do it. I’d do it if I was president.
I am just a citizen and I am sick and tired of people holding the country hostage to poverty (and ignorance) we need great ideas and a dare to try new ingenue things then brake the cycle of poverty.
— Carlos J. · Oct 14, 03:26 AM · #
The Supreme Court of Honduras has spoken!!!
It is , indeed, a great day for hondurans!
The nation—-dignity,sovereignty, territory, government—-remains one and whole!
Again I do not question the good intentions of those who promote this concept, in and outside of Honduras. But their judgement, sensitivity, and regard for national values and principles are certainly fallacious.
The vote, 13-2, was totally bipartisan.
Saludos cordiales,
Caus
— Carlos Urbizo Solis · Oct 18, 03:14 PM · #
Well, if I cannot go to one of those Charter City, I will open my business and live somewhere else, or just “go Galt” and enjoy life.
I wonder how missing the opportunity to have capital investment and job creation is good for Hondurans. Since Honduras has the highest murder rate in the world, high corruption, there is little incentive for people from first-world countries to move and live in Honduras. There are plenty of countries in Latin America where opportunities look much better.
— Daniel Morin · Oct 18, 09:10 PM · #
Poor people, I feel bad for the loss of great opportunity. dignity,sovereignty, territory, government—-remains one and whole? Ha! ha! Keep dreaming my friend. You are the face of ignorance. To leap towards progress you need resolution, intelligence, character, and two great balls. Things that lack in this country and by the way Carlos I am a Honduran and I’m not happy with this. Now, that doesn’t mean that the cities are not going to take place. No, the powerful of this country are having a party, because nobody will stop them now. they’ll have what they wanted. To control THE NEW ZONES OF PROGRESS coming soon, stupid.
Someone very powerful in this country stopped this and you know why? because MGK was ahead of them in the negotiations. MGK was taking away their business.
Carlos you said:
“Again I do not question the good intentions of those who promote this concept, in and outside of Honduras. But their judgement, sensitivity, and regard for national values and principles are certainly fallacious.”
First, Don’t insult my intelligence by making passive aggressive comments.
And second, go fuck your self with your all mightiness you fucking prick. have you ever done anything for this country? have you sacrifice something for this country? have you done something TANGIBLE for this country? did you really think of the POOR? NOOOO you didn’t. You thought of everything but the poor.
You think you won but that’s farther from the truth, time will tell. The poor lost JOBS. Me, I’m ok with this, it doesn’t affect my pockets at all. I’ll move on to happier and civilized places and enjoy my life and wealth somewhere else.
I guess you’ll have to stick with cronyism and false capitalism. AND aside from that you’re going to get dirty soon when the shit hits the fan.
I feel sorry for you.
Do I sound frustrated? of-course I do, I don’t deal well with ignorance and stupidity.
Who does?
Honduras lost big. But we’re not giving up. even form afar. Intelligence and capitalism will prevail.
— Juan Galt · Oct 19, 12:08 AM · #
Mr. Blogger…how can you possibly allow this type of language and offense in an otherwise serious and respectable site?? I wonder what Mr. Romer, et al, think of supporters like the ones above! Is this what would happen in the dream charter cities?
Then, God has spared us!!
— Carlos Urbizo Solis · Oct 19, 03:48 PM · #
Mr. Galt
Frustrated? I,d say so! should Charter Cities succeed as you are predicting, and you become part of it, will you display such rudeness toward your colleagues and subordinates? Your vebal attack on Mr. Solis detracts from Mr. Morin and his vision, and from the efforts of those who lean toward that same vision. More important of those who are still undecided in this debate.
Mr. solis has consistently presented his case with logic. He has demostrated awillingness to consider other points of view so long as they do not compromise his convictions which are based on years of dedication to right a lot of what he sees wrong with his country. His devotion to Honduras is impecable and reflect great credit upon himself and his country.
Regardless of whether he is right or wrong, he deserves the same courtesy and tact he has afforded those he disagrees with in this debate.
Sincerely, L. Brousse.
— Luis Brousse · Oct 19, 09:26 PM · #
Perhaps we should look at the court decision in the light that the promoters of the Charter Cities need to negotiate further to see if it is possible to proceed in a way that would be constitutional. Perhaps this is also one of the reasons that Paul Romer bowed out when he did.
If not the above then maybe it will become more obvious that Carlos is right in observing that the present system of politics is standing in the way of progress. Could that influence a change?
There is no shortage of capital in Honduras. Banco Atlantida was recently negotiating to buy the sugar industry in Belize although American Sugar of the US won out. Uno is buying up gasoline stations all over Central America and is proposing to build a refinery. So it seems to me that if the right people were involved it it should be possible to make Honduras one of the most prosperous countries in the Americas.
The rules of the game just seem to be all screwed up, just like in Belize.
— Philip C. Freytag · Oct 20, 02:15 PM · #
Que bueno que estos desgraciados y se los voy a decir en mi idioma y al modo de mi gente “se les ahumó” el ayote….. jajajaja como se ve que con la frustración se les desgasta su aparente inteligencia, cultura y civilización progresista y se desnuda una vil y real cara de prepotencia, ambición y deseos profundos de expansión maquiavélica en la que otros “Poor People” paguen por sus ganancia con esclavitud, condiciones indignas y miserias, solo Dios sabe que régimen esclavista nos querían imponer estos PERROS (Dog´s Fuck)pero que bueno que la justicia se impuso y ustedes go home, fuera de mi país, fuera de mi tierra de mis soberanía y solo les digo:
gringo´s fuck go to the country´s fuck and se yoo never and end……
Y se los diré en mi idioma también, pues aunque no hablo ni escribo el inglés hay cosas en las que no se requiere ser bilingüe para entender lo ofensivos y bajos que fueron con uno de nuestros hermanos y ciudadanos el señor Carlos Urbizo Solís, como les diría su amado personaje y el que mejor se parece con lo que ustedes representan para el mundo:
“Hasta la vista Baby”
(Terminator´s death)
C.C.C.
— Carmen Caballero · Oct 20, 02:22 PM · #
Mr. Luis Brousse The charter cities will not succeed in Honduras as we know it, A group of people who are the power behind the thrown, have managed to stop the project in order to keep the power they’ve had for so long. Bringing big and more powerful companies and investors would have diminished their stronghold in Honduras. to say the least. We as Hondurans had the perfect chance to confront the big problems of this country. Which are Corruption, almost 3,000,000 jobless, and the more than 70% poor, 30% of them below that line. These people we are talking about are the ones who are helping drug lords because they give them JOBS AND MONEY. These poor people we are talking about are the ones who are willing to kill for 5 dollars because their families need them to do something. consequently we are the most violent country in the world.
Have you ever been to a home in la mosquitia? Mr. Brousse, or have you ever been inside a house of the people living on the river borders? your dog has a better life than these people. your pets have better homes on your yards. So please forgive me for being a little insensitive to Mr. Urbizo, a person who lives like king in Honduras.
I carefully read Mr. Urbizo’s proposals and believe me when I say that they might sound nice in theory but will not work in Honduras because it’s dreamy, its not going to happen. And that’s why when he was trying to be a politician not long ago he was automatically shot down by his own party who is in power right now. the same people who wanted the charter cities. No wonder!
I asked around to see who is Mr. Urbizo really, so at first everybody said that he was a successful businessman, honorable and so on, which I believe to be true. Now, there was always this last whispers from some people who knew him very well, and they told me that he was quietly known to be chesty as a peacock, in other words arrogant, or having and displaying a sense of overbearing self-worth or self-importance.
I was raised in New York, and served as a marine and guys like that we call them out. specially when POOR PEOPLE that have no one representing them on this forum. So I will do so.
He said and I quote: The nations dignity,sovereignty, territory, government remains one and whole!
The dignity of whom may he be speaking of?
of the families who eat from the garbage disposal zones, or maybe he was talking of the entire population who has died trying to get to the United States because there are no JOBS in this country. please reflect on this. “now the government remains one and whole”. Isn’t these the things that we are trying to change and reform? Territory? was he speaking of the two little girls who had to eat soil for almost three days to survive because they had nothing to eat?
Aside from that he said and I again quote: But their judgement, sensitivity, and regard for national values and principles are certainly Fallacious.
From where I come from that’s an insult towards me, because he thinks I have no judgment, and I am not sensitive in regards to my country? My ideas are FALLACIOUS? So I was trying to attack the dignity of my country? its sovereignty and territory? Please go back and read all his posts on this blog and in no way he refers to the poor people of this country, he speaks of things theory but not of job creation or food for my fellow Hondurans who are dying of hunger. This country needs action, tangible goods and actions, not words and theories. We are in an emergency right now. I’m sorry mr. Brousse but you don’t live here, you wouldn’t now that. what you see in the papers is only a little speck of what I am talking about.
Now, to what you said about rudeness toward my colleagues and subordinates? I am a self made business man, very successful by the way in my field, I’ve done things that have never been done before in my business and that’s because I work very close and personal with all my subordinates and also my colleagues who are not so many because of the nature of my business. It’s practically new. I know everyone by their names, I know their families and their names too, and I go to their homes all over the world when ever I can to see if they have everything they need to live with DIGNITY. I believe in social capitalism so I give them a big piece of the pie. I dont see my subordinates as below me, I see them as my family. I served in the military and I learned to work as one. and to defend my ideals and protect the ones who need to be protected.
God has spared Honduras Carlos? Honduras is in more danger now with out the cities as Mr. Romer intended them to be or even the alternative of MGK. In the next 32 months Honduras will be shaken by many crises. mark my words. and why? IGNORANCE. Now what Carlos? What’s your plan to fix Honduras? OK, no cities, now what? what you have in mind now that MANY companies are going away or have gone to more business firendly countries. More than 250,000 jobs have gone to Nicaragua, El Salvador Costa Rica and Panama. With the cities gone I’d say maybe a million JOBS could’ve been created in the next five years. Most companies that I know are moving their transactions to Panama. Now what? What about Honduras is Open for Business, almost 40% of the companies who were interested to invest here wanted to protect their investments thru the charter cities, and were very optimistic of the project. Now what? they are not coming my friend. we have high energy expenditure, taxes on transaction, taxes based on security reasons, a 1% here a 3% a 15% over there and 10% here a 25% on that. its insane.
If you are business man you need to buy protection for your family and your business. Another thing, all incentives that were given to investors have been repealed, abolished or revoked. Anything you want to do here you have to wait for months on end and aside from it, you need to bribe them in the beginning of the process so they can start, and in the end so they can finish it.
Go figure, God saved Honduras from what? A guy who sees things as they are, and who loves to curse bullies and ignorant people. You know who I think are ignorant? Not the people who didn’t have an education, NO. I believe that the ignorant are the ones who had good education and they don’t know whether to scratch their watch or wind their asses.
About Mr. Morin, why would you bring him in to this equation, he has nothing to do with what I was saying about Urbizo. Mr. Morin doesn’t need me, he’s a successful businessman himself.
If you think his vision, and the efforts of those who lean toward that same vision are in jeopardy because I called someone a name, you have a very serious sensitivity problem, and if you are undecided with these politics, then I invite you to educate yourself in the politics, and history of this country, and in the state that our people are living right now. and I am sure you’ll be on my side.
Now, without the intention to be unfair or insult you, I would advice you to grow a thicker skin, life is tough and very unfair, so the faster you realize that, you might have a chance at a more fulfilling and wealthy life.
With Love JG ;)
Libertarian Ideals are the best and Social Capitalism is the future. We will prevail.
— Juan Galt · Oct 20, 03:10 PM · #
Who is John Galt?
— Dagny Taggart · Oct 20, 10:37 PM · #
You playing mind games with these people, dog? You think that sorrowful display of self-righteousness hides the fact that you have just been humiliated by your own shortcomings? Honestly, do you think anyone here bought that crap about just another old dumb usurper gringo wannabee fuck who says he represents poor Hondurans? Really, talk about making a huge ass of your own idiotic self. Tell your paymaster to hire another troll. You have been just been weighed in the balances and found wanting big time, you crazy fuck.
— Dagny Taggart · Oct 21, 08:10 AM · #
Como creo que todos hablan y entienden nuestra lengua, voy a comentar en español. Hubo una persona que habló muy mal del Señor Urbizo, con mucho irrespeto, muy agresivo. Si hemos empezado este foro, es mejor mantenerlo amigablemente y no insultar a nadie, no importa cual sea la opinión de la persona. El Señor Urbizo, quiere mucho su Patria y por todo el conocimiento que tiene, no cree que las Charter Cities son buenas para Honduras, tenemos que respetar su opinión. Yo tampoco estoy de acuerdo con las CC´s en Honduras, hasta que nos expliquen bien como las va a manejar el gobierno. Las CC’s modernas, no son como las compañias bananeras de los años 50, eso a las CC’s es completamente diferente. Hong Kong tambien es diferente, todos sabemos como empezó ahi. Por lo tanto, pienso que si vamos a seguir en este “debate” lo mantengamos con respeto, no insultando a las personas, especialmente al Sr. Urbizo, solo por lo que el piensa de las Ciudades Modelo. Sinceramente CLRodriguez
— C.L.Rodriguez · Oct 21, 09:42 AM · #
CLRodriguez,
La persona a la que te refieres ha dejado claro que carece de recursos intelectuales suficientes como para mantener un debate civilizado, y sobre todo, que su labor en realidad no es debatir, si no simplemente destruír la legitimidad de las personas como el Sr. Carlos Urbizo, que mediante sus cualidades de estadista ha expuesto argumentos claros y contundentes. Lo que es más, esa persona utiliza un seudónimo, se hace llamar ‘John Galt’, que es en realidad el personaje ficticio principal de la obra de ficción titulada ‘La Rebelión de Atlas’ o ‘Atlas Shrugged’, que relata los sucesos de sus personajes en una sociedad distópica ficcional estadounidense, mientras expone la filosofía del Objetivismo propuesta por la autora, Ayn Rand. Claramente no debemos gastar tiempo ni recursos en debatir a personajes con agendas ocultas que reciben honorarios para destruír los argumentos reales mediante ataques personales carentes de sentido. De manera que debemos continuar sin prestar atención al Troll antes mencionado.
— Hercules Paniagua · Oct 21, 12:22 PM · #
I have been to Hong Kong, Singapore, Macao, Jacarta, Tokyo, even Beijing and they all gave me a sense of intensive capitalistic activity with a high degree of competition and freedom. Not so much in Mexico City or Bogota and definitely not Belize City.
In doing a little research I also find that the degree of “off the records” (submarino) or exempt economy varies from about 8% for Hong Kong to 30% for Mexico City to 40% for Belize to 50% for Honduras. This includes what I call “acceleration” or graft, or just poor people’s street sales, including illicit drug activity. A lot of study has been done on the economies of every country in the world. Honduras is not the worst in this regard but working on the title.
So anything that can be done to improve the statistics is worth working for. For example. A group of the NGOs in Belize have gotten together and are advocating a peaceful revolution in Belize to throw out both of the existing parties, the existing government system, the Caribbean court for appeals and just start over.
My dentist, a prominent business man in Belize City, a member of the opposition party at the moment, and one who was a candidate for a ministerial position in the last election told me how disenchanted he was with the corrupt political system. I am sure he is not alone in this kind of thinking, and people like him might even join the cause.
— Philip C. Freytag · Oct 21, 01:19 PM · #
Mr. Freytag…those belizian NGOs may want to read From Dictatorship to Democracy by Gene Sharp for a number of ideas about peaceful civil defiance. He was nominated for a Nobel Pecae Prize in 2009.
CAUS
— Carlos Urbizo Solis · Oct 21, 03:04 PM · #
I will order the book “From Dictatorship to Democracy by Gene Sharp” from Amazon to come down in the next shipment of goods many of my friends and acquaintances in Belize have have pooled and shipped down by a very good forwarding company. In effect we become our own importers. I just wish the writer had not used the word “democracy”.
There is a remote possibility that a revolt against the two party system that exists here could result in an Atlas Shrugged type government.
— Philip C. Freytag · Oct 21, 03:36 PM · #
Just remember no government that abuses its people lasts forever…..they sow the seeds of their own destruction. The tragedy is the suffering in the transition to a better system.
You will enjoy and benefit from this book that has inspired numerous peaceful government overthrows.
— Carlos Urbizo Solis · Oct 21, 04:58 PM · #
Most likely, and instantaneouly, you can get an electronic copy.
— Carlos Urbizo Solis · Oct 21, 05:08 PM · #
“There is a way to govern ourselves without politics-we can devolve the power from Washington, but that’s not all. We can eliminate self-serving, professional politicians, abusive bureaucrats and chronic deficits at all levels, and ultimately we can pay down the national debt. There is a better way to select our legislators than by voting. Majority rule is simply a non-violent variation of ‘might makes right’”. This is an excerpt from a book by Eric Szuter in 1995 who was a very good friend of mine. The title was “The Return To Common Sense”. This book is available from Amazon for about $5. Unfortunately, he died in 1998. Much of what I say about avoiding democracy comes from our conversations in the early 1990s. He lived in Metarie, Lousiana and was a mechanical Engineer.
— Philip C. Freytag · Oct 21, 06:01 PM · #
Mr. Freytag,
The main challenge found in the social evolution indispensable to rid a nation’s political structure out of corruption is that it needs almost a complete generation of individuals willing and able to engage in a clean break with corrupt practices. And that is a very difficult thing to achieve. Your friends in Belize may eventually effect the social status quo enough as to provoke structural political renewal, but I assure you that the mafia in power today will find individuals with clean records to act as their gophers and achieve introduction in the new status political. And once integrated into the renewed structure these gophers will most likely find new ways to achieve the same old purpose, which in the end is the stealthy capture of seemingly unrelated fragments of the constitutional state that eventually leads to its malignant subversion to hidden agendas. How to avoid this re-corruption of the constitutional state, that is the question. And down here in Honduras we urgently need to find ourselves a good answer, for this is exactly what we are witnessing here with the purported renewal of the status political seemingly being offered to the people by the new force in the political landscape. They are saying that they are the true change born out of the desperation of the people with traditional politicians, and the people has taken them by their word. But now that the new party has harnessed the hopes of many, we are witnessing the overthrow of many honest persons out of their organizational structures to make space for traditional politicians or their gophers. And so the new re-corrupting cycle begins! Therefore, any society willing to challenge the corrupt status quo needs to know how to break clean with corruption if they are to achieve an improved state of things, avoiding falling back into the same genocidal paradigm. Oh, overthrowing is easy. How not to end up tasting the same shit with a different flavour, that’s what’s difficult!
— Daniel Cruz · Oct 21, 08:34 PM · #
Daniel, you have hit the nail squarely on the head. I have been trying to think of a solution to this problem most of my life. I think it is the reason that most of my shirt tail kin have left Honduras. My sister in law, Alcinia Gamero Freytag,is content to live the rest of her life in Ft. Collins, Colorado, and makes it clear that she does not even want to visit the country again.
Nevertheless, I see hope of a possibility of change for the good in Belize. For one thing, the number of uneducated extremely poor here are a small minority, and are not vocal or influential, but do understand the problem of corruption. Another factor in the equation is that there are a large number of people who have relatives and friends in Mexico and Guatemala and can see that Belize is more corrupt. We also have a significant population of Mennonites who produce a large percentage of the dairy, grain, fruit and vegetable production without any sign of corruption being involved. Two of the largest agricultural industries in the country are the papaya and sugar which are both on an equivalent of Charter Cities contracts. The largest banks are foreign controlled (Banco Atlantida). The motor fuel industry is foreign controlled (Uno and Puma). I am not aware of any significant corruption being involved in the above.
The main source of corruption seems to be a result of the two party system and the “winner takes all” for government jobs and ability to collect “acceleration fees”, free or near free land, and simple payoffs to get things done.
What I am trying to say is that the muddy water is diluted in Belize.
— Philip C. Freytag · Oct 22, 08:08 AM · #
Gentlemen…In Honduras the crux of the problem is ART. 116 OF THE ELECTORAL LAW which gives the presidential candidates for the nomination of their party, and ONLY to them, the “lawful” right, power, privilege (contrary to constitutional mandates of the political rights of the individual or citizen) to name, or veto, 2,998 candidates for elective office. I know this is not easy to underestand, but that is the way it is.
That is the reason why they are known and commonly referred to as the “owners of their respective movements”, and as owners they can dispose of their “property” as they see fit. And when their “property” take office, well, naturaly, the different owners are in ful command. Thus, there is NO democracy.
Once that infamous and perverse Art. 116 is repealed, which I have been trying to do for 16 years even going to the Supreme Court to petition that it be declared UNconstitutional, ALL the good people ( with a vocation for public service, with valid and valuable proposals, with the honesty and integrity, as well as popular support because of those qualities requiered in private and public office, those worthy and decent people will come out and be elected!! Repeal of that infamous article is close at hand as interested and honest people get excluded , shunned, by the “owners of those positions.”
When that happens, people will ask themselves where those good people have been all along. And the answer is, “They have always been there, but they were excluded by the olygarchs…political, economic, and social.” And that day is near. I will not rest until we overcome. At that point, I will disappear from the mass media, and enjoy life with my children, grandchildren and friends totaly away from the public debate that many inteligent and concerned citizens are ready to undertake.
Saludos,
— Carlos Urbizo Solis · Oct 22, 09:46 AM · #
Philip, I tell you that it pains me greatly to hear about brothers and sisters that have given up upon Honduras. Who can blame them? I myself gave up around fifteen years ago, and moved up to Canada to start over again. Became a citizen and fought my way into King’s College to take Political Science and Foundations of Western Philosophy. You are welcome to laugh at this, but for me it all changed after ‘Politeia’, or The Republic, as most people know it. What a beautiful thing would be to contemplate a Philosopher King in action, I thought! I suddenly found out that I was thirsty for this knowledge, the Form of Goodness, and I felt that my life would be unworthy unless I dedicate it to the pursuit of goodness. Forward, ten years of struggle later, I had finally created financial stability in Canada as a business owner in field rewarding for me. And just when everything seemed perfect… I heard the voice of my people, beckoning me to take my place among them, you know, like those Vikings of old when they felt like going back to Valhalla, where the brave may live forever. And here I am. Truly one needs to be brave in order to stand one’s ground and avoid being overcome by sheer desperation here in Honduras, unless you are the kind of person who is content with enclosing himself within marble and glass walls to become free from the suffering around you, like the Happy Prince. For if you are conscious of your own place in the world, you are bound to suffer for those whom were not granted your opportunities or your reason. As for me, I suffer for those who suffer, and I have learned to live this way, knowing that such suffering forces me to become a force of good for this world. Which is what a Philosopher King would do, would he not? It has been the hardest turn of the road, starting over again from scratch, on an existential premise as light as the wind, that nonetheless still seems like a crazy idea sometimes. But I have no regrets. Casting humility aside, I believe I have found certain levels of the Philosopher King’s philosophy within, which, strangely, actually prevent me from intending to acquire public office myself, but which I am nonetheless trying to sow as seeds in every person I talk to, especially young people, so that perhaps one day I’ll see a Philosopher King arising in these lands once again. Of course, from all that you have told us about Belize, we will be paying close attention to the eventual rise of a Philosopher King in Belmopan as well, don’t you think?
— Daniel Cruz · Oct 22, 05:07 PM · #
Carlos, every Honduran must join you on that noble effort, my friend. For it seems that you have found at least one of the keys to the next Politeia in Honduras. Let us bring an end to the age of darkness, that a new age of wisdom may enlighten the lives of our people. Even when I am sure the article you mention is not the only stranglehold on the Constitution to prevent a true rule for the people and by the people.
— Daniel Cruz · Oct 22, 05:31 PM · #
Mr. Cruz….Art.116 is the corner stone to denying democracy to Hondurans. Of course there are other articles of the electoral law that are reprehensible and contrary to a democratic process , like 5 year residence requirement to run in a place other than the one you were born in, like quotas for women , like not allowing polls to be made public 30 days before the elections, etc. etc. I have concentrated all my efforts on the genesis of the tragic and deplorable state of affairs for 191 years runing! Just read our declaration of independence and Valle’s enlightened insistence in well crafted constitutions and fair electoral laws. Send me your email address and I will send you essays I have written and published on our political and economic realities.
Once art. 116 is repealed, rapid and dramatic changes will start to happen, and the welfare of the people will improve with them. The olygarchs and their crony political and economic structures will crumble before our eyes. …..and peacefully!!! I have been calling for a peaceful revolution in Honduras where hondurans can decide for themselves how they will live and work with equal opportunity for all. For 191 years UNequal opportunities have been the hallmatk of the system.
The functions of government have to be cleatly and restrictively defined…..security for the people and their property, national defense, public education, public health, protection of the environment, and some infracture. These functions are carried out and implemented by democratically selected and elected public officials which art. 116 prevents and denies hondurans from having . The root of all political evil is ….Art. 116. That is where we have to begin to erradicate the violence and corruption that has prevailed and worsened in the last 20 years.
Mr. Cruz I look forward to your determined cooperation to win this first battle.
Saludos cordiales,
— Carlos Urbizo Solis · Oct 22, 06:53 PM · #
Carlos, please send me your essays, I am most interested in reading them. Send them in either English or Spanish. Google can help me with Spanish. We live in the midst of Spanish speaking people but my Spanish is awful, however, my wife can converse quite well.
— Philip C. Freytag · Oct 23, 07:59 AM · #
Most happy to comply….but I don’t have your email address. I will start with two essays, and if you want more , just let me know.
Saludos,
— Carlos Urbizo Solis · Oct 23, 08:54 AM · #
I repeat my address:
Urbizo@hotmail.com
Saludos,
Caus
— Carlos Urbizo Solis · Oct 23, 01:25 PM · #
Quien es Juan Galt? Adonde esta Juan Galt? Cuantas caras tiene Juan Galt?
En serio, cual es su verdadera opinion y su verdadero proposito? Al principio, ataco a su adversario en este debate. Luego aparecio disculparse meritoriamente. Retracto su ataque y se vindico.
Pero nuevamente presento su otra cara. Arrechado por la decision de la Corte Suprema, vilmente reanudo sus insultos a Don
Carlos; solo porque Don Carlos celebro tal decision.
Al hacer esto, Juan nulifico su previa retraccion, y ahora no sabemos adonde se encuentra Juan Galt.
Talvez se retiro con su bate, guante, y pelota como un niño frustrado por haber sido estraiquiado en un juego de
beisbol.
Gilberto Huergo.
— Gilberto Huergo · Oct 24, 09:10 PM · #
Quien es Carlos Urbizo Solis?
Los que lo han conocido como yo, estoy seguro estaran de acuerdo conmigo cuando les digo a Uds. que solamente lo han oido y visto en la radio, television, o algun discurso publico; que el es exactamente, todo el tiempo, esa misma persona.Me consta que el no tiene mas de una cara. Aparte de su vida privada, el resto es un libro abierto.Tratar de describirlo en este forum, ocuparia mucho espacio. Leanlo,veanlo,escuchenlo, tratenlo. Formen Uds. sus propias opiniones.Si solicitan a otros sus opinines, consideren el origen. Ello me incluye a mi.Yo lo conosco desde nuestra infancia desde la escuela primaria en La Ceiba.Yo se mas de el que muchos no saben porque el no lo handa pregonando.Ademas de su proeza intelectual, el es un humanitario que se ha dedicado al bienestar del projimo.Mantiene sus actos de caridad secretos. Su agenda politica demuestra su interes. El es unembajador de buena voluntad en nombre de Honduras.
Como dije antes,investiguenlo y formen sus opiniones cualquiera que sea, de la intencion de el.
En un debate todos podemos rechazar ideas, pero no hay que recurrir a denigrar el caracter de una persona.
Propongo lo siguiente: Interrumpir el circulo de la discordia hacia ambos campos.Insultos engendran mas insultos y se gasta mucha energia estar defendiendolos.
Concentrarse en considerar imparcialmente las propuestas. Tambien considerar las consequencias, no solo de hoy y mananiana sino que de mucho mas despues.Considerar el costo y el precio de lo que estan dispuestos a vender.
Saludos a todos.
Fernando Figueroa
Fernandofigueroa682yahoo.com
— fernando Figueroa · Oct 25, 12:47 PM · #
error in entry #170 :
email is : fernandofigueroa@yahoo.com
— fernando Figueroa · Oct 25, 01:56 PM · #
Another final correction. Sorry about that!
fernandofigueroa68@yahoo.com
— fernando Figueroa · Oct 30, 05:56 PM · #
Thanks for sharing this info. Many people here are leaving their own comments specially the email address is this normal for this blog?
Cheers!
— Charter Yacht Whitsundays · Nov 13, 07:37 PM · #
My bags are packed let’s get this city started!!
— Russell · Nov 17, 07:49 PM · #
Please pardon my ignorance and the interruption of your conversation. I was hoping someone here could clarify a concern about CCs in Honduras that I continuously hear when the topic comes up: Who gets to live in these CCities? How is the place populated? Because truth be told (and if you live here you will not let me lie), the concept of an isolated city with its own rules will more than likely attract the wealthy, and believe you me, they will NOT want Don Nacho the campesino as a neighbor.
Furthermore, who creates the laws? Do Honduran lawmakers do or the foreigners living within these CCites? Why would I, as a Honduran, support a concept that simply marks in the open the already obvious division of classes in my land?
Thanks in advance for the answer(s).
T.
— TS de J · Nov 18, 05:15 PM · #
This has been a great debate, both for and against the CC dilema. Too bad we ended up with personal insults as this is no to point of these discussions. As for Carlos Urbizo Solis, I have known him all my life and agree totally with Fernando Figueroa. Carlos is a man who loves Honduras, has tried for more than a decade to establish the democracy we only think we have but has never existed; he is an honest man who does have a heart for the poor and has helped the poor in many different ways especially given scholarships to numerous individuals and is a man of honor and integrity. He has made his own fortune and has never depended on the government for any special favors (as it is so common in Honduras). Carlos is sincerely dedicated to a better Honduras and I applaud his dedication of a lifetime. The Supreme Court has ruled but by no means is this dilema over. Let us stay informed and continue to defend our own ideals for a better Honduras!
Cynthia Alcantara
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Carlos, My reading of the article by Mr. Sebastian Malaby’s in The Atlantic , “The politically INcorrect guide to ending poverty” is a little more neutral than yours. My view, like the article, recognizes the problems and the potentially interesting ideas of Romer.
Btw, I think that just as horrible colonialism was, the transitions when colonialism ended were irresponsible and horrible. If the colonized country’s new leaders and the colonial power’s leaders really cared about the people of the colonized country, then I think a better way would be to transition over 1 generation in which power is granted ( or taken) by the colonized country immediately but all of the previous appointed officials remain for 3 to 20 years to serve as mentors for the new appointees to ensure stability and a legal system that is enforced with relatively low corruption, while the new government formulates its new direction. Of course, this is idealized, especially when new governments form based on military coups in which case the last thing on the mind of the new leaders is the well being of citizens, the first thing on their mind is retaining and keeping power. But I do think the mentorship model is effective in many areas of life.
Paul, have you thought about a model for foreign-governed charter cities (eg mentored cities) in which all appointed paid officials are local, and a volunteer expert in each position (local or foreign expert) donates their time to be a day-to-day mentor by either giving daily advice or by taking the lead responsibility in the position with the new local person observing and learnig the culture of non corrupt government service? Such an idea would more readily convey a message of genuine altruism, rather than corporate greed, to the people of Honduras who may be understandably skeptical of chartered cities.
Carlos, I agree the fundamental problem is democracy. But if experiments were to take place as a way of speeding up economic liberaton, I wonder if a mentored city would be more appealing to Hondurans than a chartered city? By suggesting a mentoring model, I am NOT implying that Honduran people are less intelligent or capable than people in developed countries. Just the opposite. Hondurans have just as high proportion of intelligent, skilled, capable people as any developed country. But what could benefit from mentoring is the system. For example, suppose a Honduran is appointed to a new position in the current system and he/she is surrounded by a culture of corruption. corruption will then be natural for the new person. But suppose the newly appointed official trained for 3 years In a new system in which he/she could observe or be advised by a mentor who was familiar with operating in an established and much less corrupt system.
— Patrick Monahan · Dec 1, 07:44 AM · #
Patrick….Thanks for following up on this issue that caused so much turmoil, unnecessarily dividing the honduran people in more ways than one.
In any event, under the current system nothing is possible unless the oligarchy (political, economic, and social) agrees that it might be in their self-serving interest!!! I know the honduran sentiment quite well. I have studied our society for more than two decades and participated actively in politics. In the prevailing environment those mentors you suggest would not be welcomed, and would make for lame excuses from all quarters. In a democratic ambience, the mentors you suggest could be possible because the government would have grassroot support, which they have always lacked.
Have you read my posts in their entirety?? The reason I ask is that I explained quite thoroughly how our society and polity operate and conive. May I ask what your interest in Honduras is? May I further ask if you are in a position to exert some kind of influence so we can work toggether towards democracy and free market capitalism? If you read Spanish, I could send you some material I have written and publlished that will inform you further and interest you.
Best regards,
Caus
— Carlos Urbizo Solis · Dec 1, 11:00 AM · #
Hello Carlos and Patrick, I am deeply inspired on your heated debate concerning the logistics of Charter Cities and its potential in affecting Honduran sociopolitical status. I am currently a sophomore at Tufts University studying International Relation: Latin America concentration and a minor in Economics. I was born in Honduras in 1993 and grew up there till 2009, when the coup have compelled my family to move to Korea.
I was interested in the Charter Cities since the day it was first proposed for Honduras. I interned this summer 2012 at the Honduras Embassy in South Korea and had the opportunity to have a more scholarly understanding of the proposed economic and political model.
Carlos I respect your work and your input in this issue. I understand that you have a great challenge of unraveling the challenges to consolidation of democracy in Honduras. I myself feel the obligation to engage into the issue since I have been part of the country and understand the gravity of the issue. Now with the rising legitimacy of drug cartels in Latin America, the dynamics of the political arena have changed to the degree that its unprecedented nature concerns may political scientist in this field of study.
If possible I wonder if you can send me some of your works regarding Charter Cities and contemporary concerns in Honduras. I can read both spanish and english so feel free to send me your works that may be in spanish or english. My email address is jinsu.chang@tufts.edu
— Jinsu Chang · Dec 5, 07:41 AM · #
Chers compatriotes.
Bienvenue a cette forum ce qui concerne le bien de notre chere patrie, Honduras.
Que voulez vous opine? que sont vos suggestions et vos souhaits? Partager avec nous vos idees, si’l vous plait; mais ce serait une bonne idee de la faire en anglais ou en espagnol pour le benefice de ceux qui n’ont pas verse en francais.
Mes salutations distinguees,
Luis Brousse.
— luis Brousse · Dec 7, 07:37 PM · #
Dear Mr. Chang.
It was with great interest and admiration, that I read your recent entry in this forum. Admiration, because at the age of 19 I was only interested in more mundane pursuits. Obviously you are more progresive. You addressed Mr.Monahan and Mr. Urbizo expressing your interest in the proposal of
Charter Cities in Honduras and in the consolidation of democracy there. I commend you for that!
Having said that, I can’t help but wonder why
you have waited this long to enter. Your entry is #181. Mr Urbizo’s first entry was #3
and since then, he has entered about 48 times,expressing his concerns, ideas and suggestions on these subjects. Mr. Urbizo leaves no doubts where he stands, as he has
practically single-handedly led this forum. There is little left to be added by him.
You remind me of a student, a bright one for one, who arrives late at the end of class, and asks the professor to repeat the lecture.
Allow me to represent a fellow student and provide you with my notes of the covered material.Here it is:All 180 entries. You have your work cut out ahead! Do your homework and then, if you have any particular questions,ask the professor for clarification.
If you would like to compare notes with me, feel free to contact me directly.
Good luck.
Fernando Figueroa
— fernando Figueroa · Dec 9, 05:37 PM · #
Fernando Figueroa, otro retrogado. There is nothing that Urbizo has done to change Honduras and there is nothing he will do to change it. he has no power in Honduran politics whatsoever. I,ve read all his writings and articles and there are major flaws and dreamy politics. Mono con dinero jajajajajajajaja siempre es mono.
Y ahora que? respondan que han hecho, mas que hablar pendejadas. Accion y creatividad es lo que necesita nuestro pais y no tanto bla bla.
Jinsu if you want info on charter cities look for Mr. Romer’s work, a true economist looking for real solutions. dont wiast your time with these baffoooooones.
— Juan Galt · Dec 13, 01:47 AM · #
Dear Mr. Chang
I suggested you red ALL of the entries in this forum,not just Mr.Urbizo’s and Mr. Monihan’s. Yes, that includes every one’s
including Mr. Morin“s and MR. Galt’s. That is why I said that you have your work cut out
for you.
Fernando Figueroa
— fernando Figueroa · Dec 13, 08:34 AM · #
I’m sorry for the late reply to your responses to my post. I am currently in the process of reading through the posts by many of you guys.
I am currently working on my Latin American Politics paper for my Latin America class, so I might not be able to be attentive to the discussion in this blog, but I’ll try to spare some time to thoroughly review them.Thank you very much for your responses and criticisms, I genuinely appreciate them.
Sincerely,
Jinsu chang
— Jinsu Chang · Dec 13, 09:50 PM · #
Yay! I have finally finished reading all of the entries in this forum as you suggested Mr. Fegueroa. I am extremely overwhelmed by the plethora of information, but I relish this heated debate presented in this blog. This truly motivates my studies of Latin American Politics, and of course of Honduras.
First of all, I appreciate how there are advocates for both pro-charter cities and anti-charter cities. A meaningful debate always arises when there are true believers on both sides of the argument. My position with regards to Charter cities is very optimistic for various reasons. I am currently engaged in studying the “basics” of Latin American Politics, starting from the spotlight countries such as Mexico, Venezuela, Colombia, and Chile. As I studied the political history of these countries, I have always wondered how I could apply their mistakes and successes to the story of Honduran politics. Political learning, a critical aspect of progressive politics, should not only be observed from its own political history, but also from other neighboring countries with similar culture (the culture of personalistic rule and clientelism). Well, enough of my premature understanding of Latin American politics and politics in general. Compared to all of you guys, my understanding of Honduras is very shallow and theoretical, but I will like to voice my opinion and position with regards to this discussion.
One of the main reasons I have so much hope and believe that Charter Cities would be the critical juncture in the history of Honduras, was mainly because it solved many of the criteria necessary for consolidating democracy in Honduras. Mr. Solis have numerously pointed out in this forum that Honduras needs a democracy (more accurately a republic). But clearly our biggest challenge is how? Based on my understanding and arguments from many political scientists such as Seymour Lipset, Juan Linz, Max Weber and many others is the importance of civil societies, institutions and, recently pointed out by Mainwaring and Scully, the importance of democratic governance and quality of governance (Democratic governance is “the capacity of democratic governments to implement policies that enhance a country’s political, social, and economic welfare. Successful democratic governance entails maintaining reasonably high-quality democratic practice, promoting economic growth, providing citizen security, and addressing the serious social problems (poverty, income inequality, poor social services) that afflict albeit to very different degrees, Latin American countries.” Quality of democracy refers to the “democraticness” of the political regime, which means “governing not only democratically, but also effectively.”) Mainwaring and Scully’s emphasis on the importance of quality of democracy and democratic governance implies the importance of a certain degree of economic development and non-corrupt, efficiently functioning formal and informal institutions. And an ingenious way of attaining of all this, I believe, is through Charter Cities. As Professor Romers pointed out, rules, which are basically institutions, determine the economic potential of a country. Honduras, as every one of you guys know, has a very corrupt and inflexible laws that obstruct the progress in Honduras. Even worse, it is deteriorating the country’s economy. As Mr. Galt has pointed out, we need Jobs in Honduras. A growing economy is pivotal in democratization of a country. Look at Chile, Mexico, Venezuela and even Colombia to a certain degree. They all had a growing and booming economy. As the economy boomed, people were able to get more educated, civil societies started to form, and people demanded for reforms in the institutions. In other words, the wealth got spread more, and the existing actors started to loose power and control over politics. Now, how can Honduran economy boom? (Venezuela, for example, was able to have a steady economic growth through its petro revenue that is almost 80% of the governments’ revenue.) Well, Honduras can grow economically by attracting Big Firms through Charter Cities and gain all the benefits of a more educated population, reformed institutions and thus a chance to consolidate democracy. The problem with Charter Cities in Honduras is, of course, people don’t want it, there are dangers of loosing sovereignty and it challenges existing actors in Honduras (which could be a good thing). The problem with the Honduran population opposing Charter Cities is they don’t want it. One of the criteria that Professor Romers pointed out in his speeches is the importance of “believers”. We should not make the mistake of imposing reforms like we have done for centuries. Even democracy was imposed to the citizens by the elites in Honduras, making it less legitimate and harder to consolidate it. For Charter Cities to actually succeed in Honduras, the reform should be a bottom up process rather than a top down. This would be key because now people would be the ones that are accountable rather than the government. Whether or not you agree with my opinion, I am disposed to listen to criticisms. So feel free to criticize me (hopefully without any profanity ☺).
Sincerely, Jinsu Chang
P.S. This forum is a concrete evidence that there are active civil societies in Honduras who are attempting to voice their opinions. So even without Charter Cities, there is hope in Honduran Democracy!
— Jinsu Chang · Dec 14, 11:04 AM · #
Have any of you guys read the article posted by Washington Post recently?
Please read the article, and let me know how this article affects your opinion about Charter Cities.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/congress/beset-by-drug-violence-corruption-flailing-honduras-is-caught-in-another-political-crisis/2012/12/14/60486640-45c8-11e2-8c8f-fbebf7ccab4e_story.html
— Jinsu Chang · Dec 16, 03:16 PM · #
Since a young man I have believed that, like a bad virus, a good virus could spread as well. The problem with presentng a shining star upon which to gaze is that there are many who do not wish to see a new light in the sky. A thief thinks everyone steals. And so when this project was presented to the congress of Honduras they left an alley to be used in the event that they chose another path at any point in the project. Not understanding the nature of humans at this stage of development will prohibit this project, or any like it, from developing into full fruition. You cannot advance an ideal like this one outside of an already advanced culture. And then, only if those participating agree to gaining nothing in return. There is only one of three ways this can work…. 1. If a country, large or small, totally dissolves it’s constitution, military, police and foriegn obligation. 2. Purchase enough land or property somewhere that can be declared a soveriegn nation and then build the first city, and all of that done through donation. 3. Wait until such time as man advances further from the neanderthal we so lovingly cling to.
— robert sipes · Jan 5, 01:47 PM · #
What? no more comments? hello, hello, hellooow is there anybody in there? just knock if you can hear me, is there anybody home?
— Juan Galt · Feb 11, 05:58 PM · #
Hey Mr. Galt, you have finally commented after 2months. How have you been? Recently, I haven’t been able to catch up with the news regarding charter cities. Is there any hope with this economic, political and social model? Please attach any links to articles(recent) that may be informative of charter cities
— Jinsu Chang · Feb 12, 08:46 PM · #
Hi Jinsu glad to hear from you, the cities are back but with a twist. A big twist, although I have not been able to study the ramifications of the new reforms, I’ll say these new ideas are bulletproof specially if Juan Orlando Hernandez keeps gaining power and subsequently wins the November elections. I dont agree with his methods or with many of his ideas but Honduras was asking for a powerful leader and even if I dont like his ways personally he amazes me with the way he is gathering almost an absolute power and control over the state, I believe it’s very dangerous but it gives us Hondurans a Make it or brake it kind of situation that we need. Soon I’ll post some of the articles.
Hope your studies are advancing with success.
— Juan Galt · Feb 12, 09:31 PM · #
I am not sure if this questions has been posed yet, but I do have a few…
1. For any sovereign state who has a less than democratic political system, what would be the “minorities’” (the few who retain the de jure political power) incentive to allow something like a charter city to progress?
Would this not eventually create increased competition for power, potentially by giving the rising middle class more power through new and better economic institutions this plan could provide?
2. Under what conditions could you envision a government willingly taking this chance?
3. I’m still reading up on this proposal and why it failed but my last question is: a country such as Honduras has a somewhat stable political state/centralized government, so my questions is why could they not just implement the changes necessary to improve their own institutions throughout the country themselves? Why would they even need a program like this? If I were in power it may be in my best interest to give the perception that implementing change is my intent, this could bolster support for my “party” which is good. But in order to maintain power it may be better to ensure a program good for the majority would fail. There is a definite cost to those in power for programs like this. No?
— DS · Feb 13, 01:12 PM · #
Hello Mr. Galt. Thank you very much for your reply. I would really appreciate if we could converse through email. I have some private questions regarding not only about “charter cities” in Honduras, but also about the type of career I should pursue. Please send me an email to jinsu.chang@tufts.edu.
Thank you,
Jinsu Chang
— Jinsu Chang · Feb 14, 10:50 AM · #
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— ajxndozzwre · Apr 14, 12:53 AM · #
I believe your idea of a charter city is perfect. And I do believe perfection exists in every aspect of life but that’s another discussion. However when implementing something of this nature it appears to me like it’s coming from an oligarchical state. I personally have nothing against this because of my current status in life , but in order to implement such a plan and to have “good” rules you need to empower people and have them believe in the cause. A genuine movement for advancement because all that it appears to be is a sort of trap or another scheme that people don’t believe in because of their past.
I desire to help in promoting this because educating people and having them believe this will help them will really get things moving.
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